I laid out a series of facts - none of which you challenged (because they're, you know, facts) - and then you go on an opinion-laced speech for a few paragraphs about Obama's appeasement of North Korea.

Here's another fact: North Korea obtained nuclear status late on in the Bush administration.

Some have posited that this was because Bush took his eye of North Korea because of 9/11. I'm not so sure that you can do much with a madman, but suggesting that there was appeasement under Obama when he was operating diplomatically to do something, while Trump's sabre rattling will do nothing but undermine any diplomatic activity, is simply parroting Trump talking points.

What we see now playing out in public is Trump constantly and consistently undermining his Secretary of State, which helps no one and can serve only to further convince Kim Jong-Un that he needs a nuclear threat to prevent Trump making a pre-emptive strike.

Don't forget that Tillerson famously calling Trump a "f***ing moron" was over Trump's demand that the US increase its already substantial nuclear arsenal by a factor of 10. Ignoring the fact that this would be contrary to any number of arms treaties, it sends a signal to North Korea and Iran that Trump is gearing up, not just for war, but for nuclear war.

As for your genius plan to have China sort out North Korea - ironically that also was Trump's plan. He bailed on that plan after Xi Jinping explained to him that he's barking. “After listening for 10 minutes, I realized it’s not so easy,” Trump said. 10 minutes! [Link]

On the Iran nuclear deal, everyone - even all the interested US authorities - agree that it's working as designed and Iran is in compliance. Everyone except Trump, for whom a functioning Iran nuclear deal is a large political inconvenience.

Edited by Ray in Houston (20 Oct 2017 4.06pm)

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

You can't reject facts and maintain credibility. You want to talk about myopia, you should look in the mirror (you might have to lean in a bit closer).

When Bush took office, NK didn't have a functioning nuclear weapon; when he left office, they did. If you want to say this is Obama's fault due to his appeasement, that's your opinion, but that doesn't make it so. And, by you measure, fault lies much more on Bush who "let" them (by your reasoning) get a functioning nuke.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Facts are facts. Saying that NK had no ability to attack the States until Obama came along is hilarious spin on reality. It's like KJI was just sitting around one day, saw Obama's inauguration speech on TV, and thought "He looks weak, I'm going to start a program to threaten the west. I'm so excited about this, I'm going to jump in my time machine and go back three years and test a nuke that I just pulled out of my arse with no period of development or research required."

If you are seriously trying to say that NK's nuclear threat to the west started with Obama, then you are a fool.

Edited by Ray in Houston (20 Oct 2017 4.42pm)

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Fair enough comment.....The truth is I shouldn't have this piece of 'cold war' s*** for my kids to grow up in.

All of the leaders who allowed this situation to happen take responsibility......because there was no 'pure win' they deferred...leaving this crap for the next idiot.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

I don't know why you find 'facts' so difficult to understand.

I'll repeat...read it slowly. NK's ability to hit the west emerged as a realistic possibility during Obama's watch.

You can bulls*** around that all you like. That's just you bulls***ing, like you did over the idea that there are valid medical reasons for your circumcision support.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

But, you know, f*** South Korea because they don't matter. Right?

Or, in your heavily edited history book, did North Korea not have a massive conventional army and arsenal parked about 35 miles from Seoul back then?

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.