You are here: Home > Message Board > News & Politics > Baroness Shirley Williams
May 10 2021 6.09am

Baroness Shirley Williams

Previous Topic | Next Topic


Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

 

View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 14 Apr 21 8.20am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Shirley Williams will always be highly regarded in my book for being brave enough to try to help form a party that could hold the middle ground. That it failed does not mean it wasn't needed then and is even more so today.

She gave up her political future in the attempt. Should she have succeeded we would all be much better off today as we would never have even considered Brexit. We would probably have become a country of continuous coalition and thus steered a steady, if unspectacular course. One of genuine progress for the many.

That the right so loath her puts her even higher in my opinion. If they dislike her so much she must have been doing something right.

After she lost her seat in 1979 she was a political irrelevance. Yes she and a few disgruntled others gave up trying to reform the Labour party and for 2 years the SDP had some success.

However by 1983 it and her were all over.

You say the right loath her as though she was a threat she wasn't. She was just another in a long line of politicians from all parties who never fulfilled their potential. I suspect that on a personal level she was a nice lady as other have indicated but we are discussing her impact as a politician.

She tried to position herself as the middle ground and failed. Margaret Thatcher told the electorate I am the middle ground you must move towards me and they did.

Thatcher's reforms are still alive and well even after 13 years of Labour rule.

Edited by Badger11 (14 Apr 2021 8.22am)

 


One more point

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Apr 21 10.17am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Says 'the conservative'.

It' no surprise that you share her deluded socialist liberal attitudes.

Oh I am a true conservative. Just not one on the nasty right wing. I am the kind who would have been forming the coalitions with the SDP and making sure that extreme views were kept on the sidelines, whether of the right or the left.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Apr 21 10.33am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64

Well, if that's the case, I expect you agree that Margaret Thatcher was doing something right. Especially as they were on opposing parties for their political careers. And you allegedely being of a Conservative background.

After all, many people (left and centre) threw parties for Maggie's passing.

But as for us all being better off if the SDP had succeeded, that's purely your opinion of what utopia might be. In my opinion, the middle ground might get voted in by the majority, but then, the majority get nothing in return as nothing can move forward. It's all appease, and be respectful, and apologise for the past, but don't improve your standing.

And get over Brexit. It happened. It was put to the country, regardless of what you or anyone else thinks of the legitamacy of it, and was voted for fairly.

There was as much to admire in Thatcher as there was to loath. She was a conviction politician with drive. I would anticipate that both her and Williams respected each other, even if they disagreed over policy. Ultimately though Thatcher's vision of where she saw our future was as flawed as that of the current Tory leadership. Her biggest achievement in my estimation was reducing Union power to become largely an irrelevance but in other ways her vision was backwards rather than forwards.

Brexit was not voted in fairly at all. It ought never have been put to a vote. Such things are decided by our elected representatives who we appoint to study and decide. The referendum was always only an excuse to protect the Tory party from being split up by UKIP. No serious politician really expected it to result in us leaving the EU they knew it would be a mistake.

It's over, but it's not finished. One battle has been lost but there are many more ahead.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Apr 21 10.42am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

After she lost her seat in 1979 she was a political irrelevance. Yes she and a few disgruntled others gave up trying to reform the Labour party and for 2 years the SDP had some success.

However by 1983 it and her were all over.

You say the right loath her as though she was a threat she wasn't. She was just another in a long line of politicians from all parties who never fulfilled their potential. I suspect that on a personal level she was a nice lady as other have indicated but we are discussing her impact as a politician.

She tried to position herself as the middle ground and failed. Margaret Thatcher told the electorate I am the middle ground you must move towards me and they did.

Thatcher's reforms are still alive and well even after 13 years of Labour rule.

Edited by Badger11 (14 Apr 2021 8.22am)

I don't disagree with your analysis over Thatcher's impact. I suspect Brexit might not have come to pass without her.

What future historians will make over it is another matter entirely which I won't be around to witness. I suspect though they won't be as kind as you and will see her as the precursor of a long slow decline in the fortunes of the UK at a time when we had just about recovered from the impact of WW2.

By then I expect us to again be part of a reformed European family of nation states which is where our future has to be.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 14 Apr 21 11.46am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Oh I am a true conservative. Just not one on the nasty right wing. I am the kind who would have been forming the coalitions with the SDP and making sure that extreme views were kept on the sidelines, whether of the right or the left.

Frankly, I don't think it matters if ideas come from left, right or centre. What matters is that they are sensible.
The comprehensive system was totally flawed. Socialist/Liberal policy, which has actually been guided by elitist interests, has ruined this country.

Idealists are naive.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 14 Apr 21 12.11pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't disagree with your analysis over Thatcher's impact. I suspect Brexit might not have come to pass without her.

What future historians will make over it is another matter entirely which I won't be around to witness. I suspect though they won't be as kind as you and will see her as the precursor of a long slow decline in the fortunes of the UK at a time when we had just about recovered from the impact of WW2.

By then I expect us to again be part of a reformed European family of nation states which is where our future has to be.

Finally you get it. A reformed and fairer family of nation states. I would guess brexit would have sunk without trace if this were the case four years ago. There wouldnt even have been a discussion. That wissie is why you are wrong in assuming out voters were morally wrong for our future generations.They were in fact very moral and maybe more so than remainers! If brexit was needed to get the eu to think about its operation and Ts and Cs then it was the only move to make.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 14 Apr 21 12.59pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't disagree with your analysis over Thatcher's impact. I suspect Brexit might not have come to pass without her.

What future historians will make over it is another matter entirely which I won't be around to witness. I suspect though they won't be as kind as you and will see her as the precursor of a long slow decline in the fortunes of the UK at a time when we had just about recovered from the impact of WW2.

By then I expect us to again be part of a reformed European family of nation states which is where our future has to be.

You maybe correct on this my guess is that at some point there will be a major fracture within the EU and they will finally concede for the need for a 2 track EU with the outer group allowed greater flexibility which depending on what that means could see us rejoin.

 


One more point

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 14 Apr 21 1.21pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

You maybe correct on this my guess is that at some point there will be a major fracture within the EU and they will finally concede for the need for a 2 track EU with the outer group allowed greater flexibility which depending on what that means could see us rejoin.

You are talking Daily Mail nonsense, it is the UK that is fracturing not the EU.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 14 Apr 21 1.57pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

You are talking Daily Mail nonsense, it is the UK that is fracturing not the EU.

I guess the Guardian doesn't report all the rows going on in the EU over vaccine roll out, EU budget and taxation powers, human rights in Poland and Hungary and anti EU feeling in France and Sweden.

I didn't mean it would happen anytime soon just speculating on what might happen.

As for the UK I think most people assume that at some point in the future Ireland will reunite in some shape of form this has been on the cards for decades.

As for Scotland who knows part me just thinks "oh get on with it".

 


One more point

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Apr 21 11.30pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Finally you get it. A reformed and fairer family of nation states. I would guess brexit would have sunk without trace if this were the case four years ago. There wouldnt even have been a discussion. That wissie is why you are wrong in assuming out voters were morally wrong for our future generations.They were in fact very moral and maybe more so than remainers! If brexit was needed to get the eu to think about its operation and Ts and Cs then it was the only move to make.

I have always "got it"! If you read my many comments on the issue you will see I fully understand the need for reform. Where we differ is that I believe we need to be inside leading the argument and not outside without a seat at the table. It won't help us very much if Brexit hastens the reforms without us either shaping them or being able to benefit from them.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 14 Apr 21 11.39pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Frankly, I don't think it matters if ideas come from left, right or centre. What matters is that they are sensible.
The comprehensive system was totally flawed. Socialist/Liberal policy, which has actually been guided by elitist interests, has ruined this country.

Idealists are naive.

The comprehensive system is perfectly practical and overall produces a better result for more people than the older one. There is no reason whatsoever that a gifted child cannot be challenged and encouraged to achieve their full potential in this system. It just demands efficient management and appropriate investment. It's these which have been missing. Underfunding is the problem. Not the system itself.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 15 Apr 21 5.27am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have always "got it"! If you read my many comments on the issue you will see I fully understand the need for reform. Where we differ is that I believe we need to be inside leading the argument and not outside without a seat at the table. It won't help us very much if Brexit hastens the reforms without us either shaping them or being able to benefit from them.

Cameron asked for reform and was shut out. He even told the eu that a in/out vote wouldn't happen if they bent a little. being in the eu clearly wasn't a strong enough position.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply

 

Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

You are here: Home > Message Board > News & Politics > Baroness Shirley Williams