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January 28 2022 7.07pm

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View Mstrobez's Profile Mstrobez Flag 24 Jun 21 4.49pm Send a Private Message to Mstrobez Add Mstrobez as a friend

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

I'd wager Jurgen Klopp has given a fair few their PL debuts - he pretty much played a whole academy team in the cup(s), be surprised if none of them got into the first team at some point. But without hours of research, I have no idea if that - or your - statement is true.

as for the Rest? only Klopp, Guardiola, Santo and Dyche had had 1 job in the PL over the same period, so it's a bit of a pointless comparison imho.
But how many has Dyche blooded in that time? probably a few too.

Itís not pointless at all. What people are charging Roy with is not integrating the academy. Iím merely pointing out that this is not based on facts. He bled 3 academy players in the Premier League in 4 years. Considering he took over a team rooted to the foot of the Premier League table, that is by all accounts.. well.. excellent. Dyche has given Premier League debuts to McNeil and Max Thompson during that time.

Belittling Royís achievements with the academy after what heís done with Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Tyrick Mitchell is just vitriolic.

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

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View Palace Old Geezer's Profile Palace Old Geezer Flag Midhurst 24 Jun 21 4.59pm Send a Private Message to Palace Old Geezer Add Palace Old Geezer as a friend

Just got pinged by CPFC and thought 'this is it - the announcement'.

Only news about the bloomin' Papa John's Trophy group.

Talk about jangly nerves!

 


Dad and I watched games standing on the muddy slope of the Holmesdale Road end. He cheered and I rattled.

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View CrazyBadger's Profile CrazyBadger Flag Ware 24 Jun 21 5.14pm Send a Private Message to CrazyBadger Add CrazyBadger as a friend

Originally posted by Mstrobez

Itís not pointless at all. What people are charging Roy with is not integrating the academy. Iím merely pointing out that this is not based on facts. He bled 3 academy players in the Premier League in 4 years. Considering he took over a team rooted to the foot of the Premier League table, that is by all accounts.. well.. excellent. Dyche has given Premier League debuts to McNeil and Max Thompson during that time.

Belittling Royís achievements with the academy after what heís done with Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Tyrick Mitchell is just vitriolic.

I do not Think anyone is belittling his acheivements, far from it, but you can only compare him to 4 other managers in the PL - all in different scenarios, with differing academies and differing priorities. There are another 15 clubs in the PL who cannot be judged based on academy players introduced 'during the same period Roy was manager', because there current managers haven't been.

What people see is opportunities for academy prospects to be given game time completely overlooked as RH put on the same old faces in games that really didn't have much riding on them.

In that respect, regardless of what has happened in the past and whether those he has bled have been successful or not, he seemingly could have done a lot more than he did.

 

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View Mstrobez's Profile Mstrobez Flag 24 Jun 21 5.35pm Send a Private Message to Mstrobez Add Mstrobez as a friend

Originally posted by CrazyBadger

I do not Think anyone is belittling his acheivements, far from it, but you can only compare him to 4 other managers in the PL - all in different scenarios, with differing academies and differing priorities. There are another 15 clubs in the PL who cannot be judged based on academy players introduced 'during the same period Roy was manager', because there current managers haven't been.

What people see is opportunities for academy prospects to be given game time completely overlooked as RH put on the same old faces in games that really didn't have much riding on them.

In that respect, regardless of what has happened in the past and whether those he has bled have been successful or not, he seemingly could have done a lot more than he did.

No you canít. You can compare him to all the other managers who worked in the Premier League during his time. Thereís a reason he was there for 4 years. We can also compare the amount of academy players Palace have given PL debuts to in comparison to other clubs during his time. And yes, the circumstances are relevant, hence me mentioning our circumstances and why that made his efforts with the academy even more impressive.

The charges levelled at Roy when it comes to the academy follow the theme of the charges levelled at Roy when it comes to the football he played (as if he was given the tools to play any other way and keep us up) - insulting caricatures with very little substance.

This doesnít even take into account the fact that this was prior to us obtaining CAT-1 status. If we say he managed for 3 full seasons, averaging an academy player per season getting their Premier League debut would be a good return for any club in the Premier League, even those nowhere near relegation & with far more developed academies than ours. This isnít the Championship and his first task was to keep us in the league.

The claim he didnít integrate our academy, relative to the club he was managing, the managers that came before him & his fellow managers in the Premier League, is baseless on every single level.

Iím all for warranted critique of Roy or any manager - but the vitriol that was thrown in his direction towards the tail end of his time was a very poor show, from people who simply wanted him out at all costs.


Edited by Mstrobez (24 Jun 2021 5.51pm)

 


We're the Arthur over ere!

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View Ian-VI's Profile Ian-VI Flag Vicenza 24 Jun 21 6.16pm Send a Private Message to Ian-VI Add Ian-VI as a friend

Originally posted by Mstrobez

No you canít. You can compare him to all the other managers who worked in the Premier League during his time. Thereís a reason he was there for 4 years. We can also compare the amount of academy players Palace have given PL debuts to in comparison to other clubs during his time. And yes, the circumstances are relevant, hence me mentioning our circumstances and why that made his efforts with the academy even more impressive.

The charges levelled at Roy when it comes to the academy follow the theme of the charges levelled at Roy when it comes to the football he played (as if he was given the tools to play any other way and keep us up) - insulting caricatures with very little substance.

This doesnít even take into account the fact that this was prior to us obtaining CAT-1 status. If we say he managed for 3 full seasons, averaging an academy player per season getting their Premier League debut would be a good return for any club in the Premier League, even those nowhere near relegation & with far more developed academies than ours. This isnít the Championship and his first task was to keep us in the league.

The claim he didnít integrate our academy, relative to the club he was managing, the managers that came before him & his fellow managers in the Premier League, is baseless on every single level.

Iím all for warranted critique of Roy or any manager - but the vitriol that was thrown in his direction towards the tail end of his time was a very poor show, from people who simply wanted him out at all costs.


Edited by Mstrobez (24 Jun 2021 5.51pm)

This is an excellent post that pretty much sums up and complete my post.
I've read, also on replies to my post, the logic that if Favre is given the right players for his game, he will thrive.
Well, no surprise... it would be fun reading the same old nicknames saying that the new manager is better than the old one with a team of young and speedy talents at his disposal... shame the previous manager didn't have this luck...
The point eventually is, is this new manager, NOT given the players he needs, good enough as the previous one? And how would he play?

 


The best footie management game: [Link]

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View Ian-VI's Profile Ian-VI Flag Vicenza 24 Jun 21 6.20pm Send a Private Message to Ian-VI Add Ian-VI as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

Apologies about the language barrier, was not criticising you.

No worries Spiderman, it was more aimed at myself not being able to get the right words
I never thought you were offending me in any way.

 


The best footie management game: [Link]

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View ThatPetrolRelation's Profile ThatPetrolRelation Flag Ottawa 24 Jun 21 6.34pm Send a Private Message to ThatPetrolRelation Add ThatPetrolRelation as a friend

What caught my eye was this quote from the Inside Dortmund documentary:

"Everyone says mental strength is very important. But to have mental strength on the pitch, you need players who, before all else, are able to run.
"Because saying: 'He has a super mentality, but he can't run back and forth' - that's no use. And if you have a player on the team who does nothing defensively, you don't have a team."

So we might not be the oldest in the Prem if running is his thing.

As far as the Academy and Roy, my issue was he never gave players a taste or even last few minutes to learn the game (as MANY teams do). If we had any, Roy would just sit them on the bench.
He only made a change when pressed, AWB when Ward went down and Mitchell when PVA went down. Then realized, hey they can play better than the expensive starters.
There seemed to be no way for youngsters to play their way into the line up from training.

It seems like Dortmund have a fantastic scouting dept for young players, so maybe that helps any manager uncover gems. But I'd like to think they also are great at finding managers that play their counter attacking style, which also gives me hope.

 

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View Palacesince64's Profile Palacesince64 Flag Edinburgh 24 Jun 21 7.48pm Send a Private Message to Palacesince64 Add Palacesince64 as a friend

Originally posted by ThatPetrolRelation

What caught my eye was this quote from the Inside Dortmund documentary:

"Everyone says mental strength is very important. But to have mental strength on the pitch, you need players who, before all else, are able to run.
"Because saying: 'He has a super mentality, but he can't run back and forth' - that's no use. And if you have a player on the team who does nothing defensively, you don't have a team."

So we might not be the oldest in the Prem if running is his thing.

As far as the Academy and Roy, my issue was he never gave players a taste or even last few minutes to learn the game (as MANY teams do). If we had any, Roy would just sit them on the bench.
He only made a change when pressed, AWB when Ward went down and Mitchell when PVA went down. Then realized, hey they can play better than the expensive starters.
There seemed to be no way for youngsters to play their way into the line up from training.

It seems like Dortmund have a fantastic scouting dept for young players, so maybe that helps any manager uncover gems. But I'd like to think they also are great at finding managers that play their counter attacking style, which also gives me hope.

Roy did a fantastic job in his 4 years at Palace but there is no denying he was very conservative in his approach whether that be to blooding youngsters, playing new signings, or bringing on substitutes. His team selection was fairly predictable. It sounds like our new manager will be more adventurous

 

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View TheBigToePunt's Profile TheBigToePunt Flag 24 Jun 21 8.05pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by ThatPetrolRelation

What caught my eye was this quote from the Inside Dortmund documentary:

"Everyone says mental strength is very important. But to have mental strength on the pitch, you need players who, before all else, are able to run.
"Because saying: 'He has a super mentality, but he can't run back and forth' - that's no use. And if you have a player on the team who does nothing defensively, you don't have a team."

So we might not be the oldest in the Prem if running is his thing.

As far as the Academy and Roy, my issue was he never gave players a taste or even last few minutes to learn the game (as MANY teams do). If we had any, Roy would just sit them on the bench.
He only made a change when pressed, AWB when Ward went down and Mitchell when PVA went down. Then realized, hey they can play better than the expensive starters.
There seemed to be no way for youngsters to play their way into the line up from training.

It seems like Dortmund have a fantastic scouting dept for young players, so maybe that helps any manager uncover gems. But I'd like to think they also are great at finding managers that play their counter attacking style, which also gives me hope.

That same quote struck me too. Another thing I saw said Favre went from a high pressing game to a quick counter attacking one in his time at dortmund - both need great mobility across the side.

I simply cannot see us becoming a more mobile side without major surgery. We know our defence is painfully slow due to age, and whilst the pundits talk of our pace on the break, that's just lazy journalism - Benteke has long lost any serious pace he might have once had, as I fear has Wilf, who will always check back and retain the ball when he has a chance to knock it past the defender and race him, so much so I wondered if he was carrying a hamstring injury for large parts of last season. Townsend has never been quick, and whilst Eze carries the ball beautifully I'm not sure he's much of a sprinter. As for getting that lot to press effectively from the front, well, let's just say Favre would have his work cut out.

Regarding the youngsters I can only repeat the point I and others have made for some time - the careers (including loan spells) of the players Roy didn't give game time to have hardly cast doubt on his decisions. We are all hoping that the u18s are a higher standard than the u23s (certainly the club seem to think they are, hence references to promoting youth being one of the new managers apparent priorities) but even if that happens we can only say Roy was wrong if Favre gets Premier league performances out of youth players that Roy ignored.

Edited by TheBigToePunt (24 Jun 2021 8.05pm)

 

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View crystal-purley's Profile crystal-purley Flag Purley 24 Jun 21 8.23pm Send a Private Message to crystal-purley Add crystal-purley as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

That same quote struck me too. Another thing I saw said Favre went from a high pressing game to a quick counter attacking one in his time at dortmund - both need great mobility across the side.

I simply cannot see us becoming a more mobile side without major surgery. We know our defence is painfully slow due to age, and whilst the pundits talk of our pace on the break, that's just lazy journalism - Benteke has long lost any serious pace he might have once had, as I fear has Wilf, who will always check back and retain the ball when he has a chance to knock it past the defender and race him, so much so I wondered if he was carrying a hamstring injury for large parts of last season. Townsend has never been quick, and whilst Eze carries the ball beautifully I'm not sure he's much of a sprinter. As for getting that lot to press effectively from the front, well, let's just say Favre would have his work cut out.

Regarding the youngsters I can only repeat the point I and others have made for some time - the careers (including loan spells) of the players Roy didn't give game time to have hardly cast doubt on his decisions. We are all hoping that the u18s are a higher standard than the u23s (certainly the club seem to think they are, hence references to promoting youth being one of the new managers apparent priorities) but even if that happens we can only say Roy was wrong if Favre gets Premier league performances out of youth players that Roy ignored.

Edited by TheBigToePunt (24 Jun 2021 8.05pm)

Agreed and good post. We have only just reclaimed the Academy level so it will take a season or two to bring through youngsters but hopefully Rak Sakyi could be needed if Eze and Wilf are both unavailable.

 


Just retired and almost mastered decorating but haven't learned to garden yet

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View Thunderslug's Profile Thunderslug Flag Warlingham 24 Jun 21 8.44pm Send a Private Message to Thunderslug Add Thunderslug as a friend

Has he signed yet?

I had a chat with my friend Helmut from Dusseldorf this evening. Heís a massive Foals Fan and has nothing but praise for their old coach, Lucien Favre. LF was at Borussia MG for about four seasons; apparently heís keen on bringing up youth from the academy but is also prepared to work individually with experienced players to improve specific skills and develop their game. I get the impression that his style is (or was) as a proper football coach rather than a media-savvy manager.

I think heíll be good for us, but no plaudits to the despicable Roy Out brigade, you rotters.

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag bristol 24 Jun 21 8.58pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Mstrobez

No you canít. You can compare him to all the other managers who worked in the Premier League during his time. Thereís a reason he was there for 4 years. We can also compare the amount of academy players Palace have given PL debuts to in comparison to other clubs during his time. And yes, the circumstances are relevant, hence me mentioning our circumstances and why that made his efforts with the academy even more impressive.

The charges levelled at Roy when it comes to the academy follow the theme of the charges levelled at Roy when it comes to the football he played (as if he was given the tools to play any other way and keep us up) - insulting caricatures with very little substance.

This doesnít even take into account the fact that this was prior to us obtaining CAT-1 status. If we say he managed for 3 full seasons, averaging an academy player per season getting their Premier League debut would be a good return for any club in the Premier League, even those nowhere near relegation & with far more developed academies than ours. This isnít the Championship and his first task was to keep us in the league.

The claim he didnít integrate our academy, relative to the club he was managing, the managers that came before him & his fellow managers in the Premier League, is baseless on every single level.

Iím all for warranted critique of Roy or any manager - but the vitriol that was thrown in his direction towards the tail end of his time was a very poor show, from people who simply wanted him out at all costs.


Edited by Mstrobez (24 Jun 2021 5.51pm)

While I agree every word I can't agree this post as you have a yellow card


 

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