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March 23 2023 1.52pm

CONservative government incompetence.

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag The garden of England 10 Dec 22 10.42am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

My wife is a nurse. Currently working 6 days a week trying to help people like you.

We will have the day before our holiday to prepare and get our dog into kennels. I wouldnít want to interrupt that day when for the previous 29 I will be alone for most of them. Maybe you are inconsiderate. I try not to be.

I am neither afraid nor lying. Why on earth would I be?

People like me. Are you immune to needing health care then?
People like us would be more appropriate superman !
Iím not inconsiderate just chauvinistic so on day 7 get her in the kitchen and go for a beer

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 10 Dec 22 10.49am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

I have said it before that I believe that the blame for the shortage of nurses should be placed at the door of the Royal College of Nursing who have raised the barrier to entry to degree level thus ruling out thousands of people who have the aptitude and desire to do the job successfully in favour of those who are good at passing exams but soon lose interest when asked to get down and dirty.

The withdrawal of the training bursary also didn't help either.

Yep, I forgot to mention this.

I still can't quite believe it, literally pulling the ladder up to many in the working class demographic who would make excellent nurses but see the risk of degree level debt in this country and make alternative career choices.

So they import and then tell us we have no choice when they created the situation.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 10.57am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 11.23am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

That's not really accurate.

It's not as if this was the first respiratory pandemic, even in m y own lifetime. Indeed, we have had them all though our history and government have had refined policies towards them taught from history. They announced those very same policies at the start and it was completely overturned with spend, spend spend of borrowe d money.

What happened was unprecedented and completely out of line with past reactions. It was heavily criticised not only by layman plebs like me but also at the very highest medical levels, for example the 'Great Barrington declaration'. There was a massive censorship and omission of alternative voices and promotion of only one side of the discussion. Indeed, it was only at those highest levels that some felt able to do it without losing their jobs. At the lower end we saw many people lose their jobs for just making their own personal health care decisions.

Also, let it not be forgotten the quite authoritarian measures towards the unvaccinated's liberties that you personally called for because you erroneously believed that the unvaccinated were higher transmitters. I also remember the insults that some unfortunately made. However, for you to have the gall to talk about what isn't and what is 'misinformation' is a utter disfigurement of reality.

When you talk so well about yourself perhaps you should reflect upon that.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 10.16am)[/

Itís perfectly accurate. Itís too simplistic to say we have faced respiratory pandemics in the past. This isnít the past and this was a new respiratory disease the outcomes of which appeared to be disastrous as the early knowledge evolved. You might live in the past but the rest of us live in a crowded, interconnected world. The ďGreat Barrington DeclarationĒ was not by the very highest medical levels at all. It was rubbished by them and written by a bunch of deniers. The was absolutely no censorship at all of alternative voices. What a ridiculous claim. There was far too much noise around many of the fraudulent claims which resulted in distrust in the vaccines and irresponsible behaviour from far too many people. In my view we were far too tolerant in situations which threatened the health and well being of others. Those who want to take personal decisions that impact others need to remain isolated.

Our knowledge about transmission has evolved as has the virus. Decisions can only ever be made with the information you actually possess and occasionally someoneís theory will prove to have been true. That doesnít mean you plan on theories. You plan on the available science.

That said getting vaccinated was, and still is, vital for all of us. Not because of its ability to reduce infection. That was always only a secondary consideration. The primary reason is the reduction in severe disease and the consequential lessening of demand on the NHS. Which is already in considerable difficulty. Just imagine what a state we would be in without the vaccines. So I continue to regard anyone who refuses the vaccines for anything other than a medical condition as completely irresponsible.

Thatís not misinformation. Itís the simple truth. Nothing is completely risk free so you must weigh the risks and determine the best course. Anyone deciding not to join in and choose a different course is free to do so but needs to understand there will be consequences. Putting them last on NHS waiting lists would be my policy!

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (10 Dec 2022 11.25am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 10 Dec 22 12.10pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle


Itís perfectly accurate. Itís too simplistic to say we have faced respiratory pandemics in the past. This isnít the past and this was a new respiratory disease the outcomes of which appeared to be disastrous as the early knowledge evolved. You might live in the past but the rest of us live in a crowded, interconnected world. The ďGreat Barrington DeclarationĒ was not by the very highest medical levels at all. It was rubbished by them and written by a bunch of deniers. The was absolutely no censorship at all of alternative voices. What a ridiculous claim. There was far too much noise around many of the fraudulent claims which resulted in distrust in the vaccines and irresponsible behaviour from far too many people. In my view we were far too tolerant in situations which threatened the health and well being of others. Those who want to take personal decisions that impact others need to remain isolated.

The great Barrington declaration contained over 60 thousand signors of medical & public health scientists and medical practitioners.

While you rubbish the signers of that declaration as not being at the 'highest medical levels at all' let me tell people whose signatures are on that declaration.

Dr. Martin Kulldorff, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations.

Dr. Sunetra Gupta, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations.

I could go on but this answer would go on at huge length as there are many high level professional signers to this declaration available to all to see....here is the link to them where you can also read the declaration itself.

[Link]

As regards the censorship to which you say there was 'absolutely no censorship of alternative voices' I ask the reader just how aware were they of this declaration from the mainstream media. I suspect most of them weren't...Instead of alternative voices being heard what coverage happened was mainly negative. Yet, in contradiction to what you say these are in fact very high level people. .Indeed, the recent twitter file release prove that its signers had their tweets shadow banned from trending.

You just continue to mislead people.

The worrying fact that a significant amount of the medical regulatory and related professions are funded by and chaired by pharmaceutical representatives and their financial backers. The same pattern is also found in the US and western media and academic fields. It creates a considerable concern on both silencing concerns and hence creating a false impression as to the extent of those concerns within industries.

Personally I believe that a time will come when this is looked back on as a serious conflict of interest that has parallels to how the medical and other professions were in hoc to the smoking industry.

Russell Brand has done much good work highlighting this and he is amplifying concerns that many ethical people around the medical profession raise.

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Our knowledge about transmission has evolved as has the virus. Decisions can only ever be made with the information you actually possess and occasionally someoneís theory will prove to have been true. That doesnít mean you plan on theories. You plan on the available science.

What available science are you talking about?

Considering what we have now been told on actual transmission what science are you referring to that accurately told you that it stopped transmission?

I know I was told this, but what science?


Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That said getting vaccinated was, and still is, vital for all of us. Not because of its ability to reduce infection. That was always only a secondary consideration. The primary reason is the reduction in severe disease and the consequential lessening of demand on the NHS. Which is already in considerable difficulty. Just imagine what a state we would be in without the vaccines. So I continue to regard anyone who refuses the vaccines for anything other than a medical condition as completely irresponsible.

Thatís not misinformation. Itís the simple truth. Nothing is completely risk free so you must weigh the risks and determine the best course. Anyone deciding not to join in and choose a different course is free to do so but needs to understand there will be consequences. Putting them last on NHS waiting lists would be my policy!

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (10 Dec 2022 11.25am)

This country built and staffed Nightingale hospitals at the very height of these infection concerns. Not only were these never fully utilized...which never even got close to happening but they started to be used for other hospital cases and/or taken down after concerns about coping subsided.

I have been hearing about the NHS not being able to cope for decades and while I certainly believe that a version of this is true I also think it's plainly never been about pandemics but a cause of political choices made....some of which I've already covered in this thread.

The speed of which these new hospitals were created and staffed shows just how disconnected your words are from the reality of how fast a rich country like ours can create provision.


Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 3.11pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 1.57pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

People like me. Are you immune to needing health care then?
People like us would be more appropriate superman !
Iím not inconsiderate just chauvinistic so on day 7 get her in the kitchen and go for a beer

Quite possibly more than you do, but I am already convinced.

I was also pretty chauvinistic in my younger days but have become rather more considerate now. Try it. It doesn't hurt. There will be plenty of opportunity to drink beer and wine where I will be in the days following.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 2.07pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I won't speak badly of your family still the point could be made that nurses trained aboard could be staying and helping the people of their own native country with their skills.....what about them? Those people you care so much about. It is a brain drain.

We should and could have been training British nurses without importing foreign nurses who are badly needed in their own country. We are certainly rich enough to do this and this was what we were doing for decades until the internationalist took over.....Then we get told we need immigrants so badly.....We only need them because they imported them to lessen training costs and we obviously know why those nurses are attracted here.

The problem is entirely a self created one.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 10.15am)

My wife is a British citizen who trained in the UK and has a nursing degree.

The places are there. There is a lot of help available to get the qualifications, and various routes possible, including apprenticeships where folk can earn whilst they learn.

The barriers are largely imaginary. If someone wants to enter nursing and possesses the necessary skill sets then a way can be found.

That's not the problem. It's the pressure, the pay and the hours when alternative, better paid work is available in supermarkets.

International nurses are prepared to do the job at the rates of pay, as it's better than they get at home. There is no easy, short term, affordable solution.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 2.17pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

I have said it before that I believe that the blame for the shortage of nurses should be placed at the door of the Royal College of Nursing who have raised the barrier to entry to degree level thus ruling out thousands of people who have the aptitude and desire to do the job successfully in favour of those who are good at passing exams but soon lose interest when asked to get down and dirty.

The withdrawal of the training bursary also didn't help either.

I don't think that's really fair.

It's been more of an attempt sponsored by government to upskill what nurses do, so they can take the more straightforward work away from doctors and free them for more complicated things.

That's been balanced by increasing the number of Health Care Assistants who now do much of what nurses used to. The uniforms look similar, so most people cannot tell the difference. You won't find too many nurses changing beds, or serving meals these days.

For instance my wife is today performing eye tests at a clinic, prior to a specialist making a diagnosis. She is using specialised equipment to do this.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 3.10pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

The great Barrington declaration contained over 60 thousand signors of medical & public health scientists and medical practitioners.


Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 12.19pm)

The post that contained the above is far too long and convoluted to all be repeated. So I will pick out a few glaring errors.

The most blatant of which is above, which is totally untrue. We have covered "The Great Barrington Declaration" and it's debunking several times before. So it's quite surprising to see it surface again as a justification for an attitude that has been so comprehensively destroyed. Rather than pick it apart myself the Wiki entry does it very effectively and can be read here:-

[Link]

Far from having 60,000 medical & public health scientists and medical practitioners signatories it had a check click box in which people self certified themselves. No verification took place and many were obvious frauds. I could have signed it using anyone's name. The list is worthless propaganda. Yet you suggest I am misleading people! Look in the mirror!

The report was commissioned by a right wing organisation with an agenda. They are also climate change deniers and are funded by the Koch brothers. The published as an open letter because no scientific journal would touch it. It was not peer-reviewed.

The 3 primary authors, as mentioned in the original comment, all have question marks over their associations and stances on other issues.

The report was condemned as dangerous by the WHO and just about every leading health expert in the world, including Dr Fauci and our own Patrick Vallance. There were many others, some of who used strong language.

In short, it's dangerous nonsense which was quickly dismissed as misleading and doing a grave disservice to those trying to handle the pandemic.

Why did the mainstream media not cover it more fully? Possibly because they could see it was misleading and dangerous?

Yes research is funded by the pharma industry. That's what happens in the commercial world. It is also regulated and peer reviewed. That's what happens in a democracy. Sure, mistakes have been made, and lessons learned and there will be more, but on balance it works. New discoveries are made, and our populations get healthier.

I would have to search again to find the precise reasoning why it was believed the original virus had restricted transmission after vaccination. From memory, it came from early data sets and was the best evidence then available. Some being better than none.

Yes we built the Nightingale hospitals, almost certainly as part of a pre-ordained response to a pandemic. You don't create such things overnight otherwise. That they were found to be largely unnecessary doesn't mean that was wrong. It was all part of a steep learning curve in a new situation for which no amount of planning provided the answers.

No-one pretends that the NHS wouldn't be having problems but for Covid. The fear was that runaway Covid would cause it to collapse, something that so far has just about been avoided.

Had we followed your preferred route a collapse seems to have been a much more likely outcome. I cannot prove it, but I am very thankful we didn't.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 10 Dec 22 3.50pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Wisbech can make whatever claims he likes, just as the leftist activist editors can on Wikipedia.

However, for those interested who have read his post here I suggest you go to the Barrington declaration page itself. On that page are a list of high level professionals who have signed that letter.

Then compare it to what Wisbech wrote.

I suggest that what he wrote is similar to his claims about the 'science', which turned out to be false. I mean the highlighted signers of that letter are well known people working in the industry today.

As for the claim that what they said has been destroyed, that's a fantasy and nothing more than an example of the nonsense he so frequently writes on these boards.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 4.26pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View the silurian's Profile the silurian Flag The garden of England.(not really) 10 Dec 22 5.09pm Send a Private Message to the silurian Add the silurian as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Itís not convenient. Itís just a fact. Do you need me to prove it, because I can. Or will you, just for once, accept my word?

How exactly will you prove it? I do hope youre not planning on posting pics of yourself on the nudie beach???.
I accept that maybe just maybe you are going on holiday, so am I, Tomorrow!

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 5.42pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by the silurian

How exactly will you prove it? I do hope youre not planning on posting pics of yourself on the nudie beach???.
I accept that maybe just maybe you are going on holiday, so am I, Tomorrow!

I could send you a copy of my booking confirmation, redacted to remove my name and address of course!

Have a nice holiday.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 10 Dec 22 6.09pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Wisbech can make whatever claims he likes, just as the leftist activist editors can on Wikipedia.

However, for those interested who have read his post here I suggest you go to the Barrington declaration page itself. On that page are a list of high level professionals who have signed that letter.

Then compare it to what Wisbech wrote.

I suggest that what he wrote is similar to his claims about the 'science', which turned out to be false. I mean the highlighted signers of that letter are well known people working in the industry today.

As for the claim that what they said has been destroyed, that's a fantasy and nothing more than an example of the nonsense he so frequently writes on these boards.

Edited by Stirlingsays (10 Dec 2022 4.26pm)

Thatís worthy of Trump! Anything you donít like is fake news. A thoughtfully assembled list of facts is dismissed as coming from ďleftist activistsĒ. Facts donít do politics.

By all means compare the list of signatures on the report with those at the very top of their professions who have rubbished it. Then also ask if those signatures are real!

Those highlighted are indeed well known but not by their peers for their work in the industry. They are well known for holding discredited opinions and being sponsored by dubious sources.

The science didnít turn out to be false at all. The virus mutated and the variants started behaving differently. Donít let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy though.

Of course itís been destroyed. Only Sweden took the kind of route they recommended and they had to backtrack.

No-one with any level of responsibility takes these kind of ideas seriously. They might have provided a debate worth having in the early days, I remember Dominic Cummings proposing herd immunity as the way forward until he was put in his place by the professionals. Considered, rejected, binned. Except by know-it-alls with wider agendas.

Clinging to this kind of nonsense to try to justify an approach which could not work and to support irresponsible behaviour is not something I would be proud to own.

 

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