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June 1 2023 8.54am

Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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View Ouzo Dan's Profile Ouzo Dan 22 May 23 11.15am Send a Private Message to Ouzo Dan Add Ouzo Dan as a friend

Interesting development in the last 30 minutes or so, Ukrainian backed Russian separatists have been shelling a military barracks/checkpoint in Belgorod & have now rolled in a couple of tanks.

Russia has so far this year recruited 117,000 volunteers alongside the close to a million conscripts it's called up. this is what I mean about Crimea becoming an absolute fortress & how it's going to take something quite remarkable from Ukraine to push into the above.

Britain is no longer considered a Tier 1 military & would need the help of NATO to defend the mainland.
What the Tories & our military leaders have done to our military is treason.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 May 23 11.38am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ouzo Dan

Interesting development in the last 30 minutes or so, Ukrainian backed Russian separatists have been shelling a military barracks/checkpoint in Belgorod & have now rolled in a couple of tanks.

Russia has so far this year recruited 117,000 volunteers alongside the close to a million conscripts it's called up. this is what I mean about Crimea becoming an absolute fortress & how it's going to take something quite remarkable from Ukraine to push into the above.

Britain is no longer considered a Tier 1 military & would need the help of NATO to defend the mainland.
What the Tories & our military leaders have done to our military is treason.

Yep, the whole thing has been madness.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 22 May 23 11.53am

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Yep.

Thank goodness for social media however where they can both scream loudest to others en masse and present a distorted image of the world and it's inhabitants with those outside of the two fringes looking on in bemusement and bewilderment.

100%. It's disturbing as essentially people can be gradually nudged towards the most maligant and warped places and individuals, which they absolutely would not have done from a point of being reasonably involved in a wider actual community. Often maladjusted, they are suckered in and given meaning by 'virtual communities' (apt wording) where the trade-in is basically their own likely more nuanced throught of before, and a near total blind spot to the more abhorrent or dangerous views of their new in-group. Group polarisation, 'purity' of view. Echo chambers come to give meaning to their day. It's their crack.

You're bang on with the distorted image point. I've always found that to be the silent unsaid admission within nuts social media echo chambers. That being that if their particular world view is so right, why does it then need to become one big carefully curated circle jerk ommitting or including thoughts or facts based solely on what they already choose to believe. The reality is that life is far more complex and nuanced and that this behaviour is as much a relentless mantra in denial of that than is it the presentation of truth. Opting for an approach to life that gravitates towards extremes seem not to be a great option for an individual or those around them.

The irony with these fringes is that they both use one another's extremes as fuel to gee up and further their own. They are appropropriate bed fellows with very similar mental processes, when the vast majority of people are more thoughtful and respectful (as is often the way of interaction in the real world, rather than a life online). As you rightly say, most people (or 'normies' as some of these groups use as an insult for normal people) can only look on bemused and retain reasoned and fair minded views, while attributing a basic, default humanity to others that these types, left and right, manage to largely snuff out as result if their blinkered self indulgence.

Edited by footythoughts (22 May 2023 11.58am)

 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 22 May 23 11.56am

Originally posted by Ouzo Dan

Interesting development in the last 30 minutes or so, Ukrainian backed Russian separatists have been shelling a military barracks/checkpoint in Belgorod & have now rolled in a couple of tanks.

Russia has so far this year recruited 117,000 volunteers alongside the close to a million conscripts it's called up. this is what I mean about Crimea becoming an absolute fortress & how it's going to take something quite remarkable from Ukraine to push into the above.

Britain is no longer considered a Tier 1 military & would need the help of NATO to defend the mainland.
What the Tories & our military leaders have done to our military is treason.

I really can't see Ukraine attempting to take Crimea back even if is has been a stated aim. Essentially I think it's better viewed that they are fighting for the survival of their country. It's not like Russia are going to stop, and so much the same as if someone attacked up and we were offered arms, I'm sure we'd take them and do our level best to defend our families and communities.

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 22 May 23 12.04pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

The UK is just completing the refurbishment of 2000 mountain bikes to send out.
For all the military inching forward, no-one seems to be trying to talk this situation to resolvent, which has eventually got to happen.
Or we just going to let people keep killing each other

 


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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 22 May 23 12.09pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

100%. It's disturbing as essentially people can be gradually nudged towards the most maligant and warped places and individuals, which they absolutely would not have done from a point of being reasonably involved in a wider actual community. Often maladjusted, they are suckered in and given meaning by 'virtual communities' (apt wording) where the trade-in is basically their own likely more nuanced throught of before, and a near total blind spot to the more abhorrent or dangerous views of their new in-group. Group polarisation, 'purity' of view. Echo chambers come to give meaning to their day. It's their crack.

You're bang on with the distorted image point. I've always found that to be the silent unsaid admission within nuts social media echo chambers. That being that if their particular world view is so right, why does it then need to become one big carefully curated circle jerk ommitting or including thoughts of facts based solely on what they already choose to believe. The reality is that life is far more complex and nuanced and that this behaviour is as much a relentless mantra in denial of that than is it the presentation of truth. Opting for an approach to life that gravitates towards extremes or damage seem not to be a great option for an individual or those around them.

The irony with these fringes is that they both use one another's extremes as fuel to gee up and further their own. They are appropropriate bed fellows with very similar mental processes, when the vast majority of people are always more thoughtful and respectful (as is often the way of interaction in the real world, rather than a life online). As you rightly say, most people (or 'normies' as some of these groups use as an insult for normal people) can only look on bemused and retain reasoned and fair minded views, while attributing a basic, default humanity to others that these types, left and right, manage to snuff as result if their blinkered self indulgence.


Edited by footythoughts (22 May 2023 11.54am)

Agree. It really is two sides of the same coin. As you say they almost use one another as justification for their existence and increasingly extreme world views, continually raising the stakes on their respective sides.

I feel as though the longer any given individual exists or dwells within these environments the further inclined they are to succumb to the 'distorted reality' and drift towards one side or t'other as though it is the only available course of action.

I also think media in general, including the likes of new channels, politicians, celebrities etc. seem to fear and therefore often poorly attempt to align with such groups/views only further distorting the image to the vast majority.

I still maintain leaving the house, talking to others and general socialising is the antidote for all this. I find it genuinely bizarre how so many of people on either of these sides often report a detachment and estrangement from their families and friends, or ex-friends, and do not see this as indicative of their situation or utilise it for a review of their thinking and actions.

I'm also of the opinion that those on the extreme of either side are often very angry and incorrectly want to focus the drivers for this externally, theorising the cure is to control others as they are the problem. The truth however is almost certainly a dissatisfaction with themselves and anger at their inability to identify and implement solutions to rectify this.

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 22 May 23 12.12pm

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

The UK is just completing the refurbishment of 2000 mountain bikes to send out.

They can have all of our confiscated e-scooters too.

For all the military inching forward, no-one seems to be trying to talk this situation to resolvent, which has eventually got to happen.
Or we just going to let people keep killing each other

But that implies there is a way to talk it to a point of peace. There was a March to Kyiv. Intentions were clear and uncompromising, and some parties can be trusted about as far as thrown. They don't need our permission of keep on killing one another. Nor would it simply stop if we stopped supplying arms. The March on would intensify dramatically and I'm not sure that would be some kind of peace parade either. I think we live in an age where we think we can talk or act our way out of anything. I'm not sure that's always the case. We should certainly hope for a peace agreement, but I'm not suire that's very realistic unless militarily Russia grsinds to a standstill.. and even then they have millions to send into the meat grinder.


 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 22 May 23 12.25pm

Originally posted by Nicholas91

Agree. It really is two sides of the same coin. As you say they almost use one another as justification for their existence and increasingly extreme world views, continually raising the stakes on their respective sides.

I feel as though the longer any given individual exists or dwells within these environments the further inclined they are to succumb to the 'distorted reality' and drift towards one side or t'other as though it is the only available course of action.

I also think media in general, including the likes of new channels, politicians, celebrities etc. seem to fear and therefore often poorly attempt to align with such groups/views only further distorting the image to the vast majority.

I still maintain leaving the house, talking to others and general socialising is the antidote for all this. I find it genuinely bizarre how so many of people on either of these sides often report a detachment and estrangement from their families and friends, or ex-friends, and do not see this as indicative of their situation or utilise it for a review of their thinking and actions.

I'm also of the opinion that those on the extreme of either side are often very angry and incorrectly want to focus the drivers for this externally, theorising the cure is to control others as they are the problem. The truth however is almost certainly a dissatisfaction with themselves and anger at their inability to identify and implement solutions to rectify this.

Absolutely. I'm sure people see it as some kind of grand awakening over time, and of course for those at the top of the tree on either social media or traditional media offshoots there is most often a financial imperative. I would wager that more often than not they are far more shrewd, calculating and less ideologically driven than their audience. More akin to an algorithym knowing what will go down well. And that's what social media comes down to also really; tailored to maximise interaction and eyeballs on screens and it's easier to do that by presenting more of the same, more extreme versions of the same and to get people riled up.

Above all it's sad that people get so pulled into it. A life well lived with family and friends has a whole range of views and perspectives and itself most often brings about a level of mutual respect and sensible discourse between individuals. All of that is lost online, and as you say when people damage their relationships with family and friends due to their conduct, they then either wake up to their behaviour, or it's grievance central in their new online life, with a typically scatter gun rage pointed at just about anything that doesn't resemble a mirror.

 

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View Ouzo Dan's Profile Ouzo Dan 22 May 23 12.27pm Send a Private Message to Ouzo Dan Add Ouzo Dan as a friend

Seems what's going on in Belgorod is escalating, it would be madness for Kyiv to be directly involved in this.

Surely a suicide mission for those involved?

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 May 23 12.41pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Ouzo Dan

Seems what's going on in Belgorod is escalating, it would be madness for Kyiv to be directly involved in this.

Surely a suicide mission for those involved?


Personally I doubt that any major action by Ukrainian forces doesn't have the supervision of Nato. Our secret and security services are up to the eyeballs in Ukraine. At some point we will learn who has died over there.

No one in the west, other than Orban, is calling for peace and we are essentially puppets of the US state department. I genuinely fear the escalation.

Only a DeSantis or Trump win ends the madness.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View palace_in_frogland's Profile palace_in_frogland Flag In a broken dream 22 May 23 12.59pm Send a Private Message to palace_in_frogland Add palace_in_frogland as a friend

Originally posted by Ouzo Dan

Interesting development in the last 30 minutes or so, Ukrainian backed Russian separatists have been shelling a military barracks/checkpoint in Belgorod & have now rolled in a couple of tanks.

Russia has so far this year recruited 117,000 volunteers alongside the close to a million conscripts it's called up. this is what I mean about Crimea becoming an absolute fortress & how it's going to take something quite remarkable from Ukraine to push into the above.

Britain is no longer considered a Tier 1 military & would need the help of NATO to defend the mainland.
What the Tories & our military leaders have done to our military is treason.

I recently watched an interesting video showing how Crimea could possibly be taken more easily than one might imagine.

Basically, there are only 4 ways to supply Crimea; by air, by sea, through the landbridge Russia established to the east or via the Kerch bridge.

If Ukraine pushes south from Kherson and can take back Melitopol, that severs the landbridge. A couple of strikes with the Storm Shadow missiles we just gave them will take out the Kerch Bridge.

With Patriot systems in Melitopol Russia will not be able to fly safely in and out of Crimean airports; and that leaves the sea, which will become increasingly hazardous from seaborne drone attacks.

At that point, it wouldn’t matter if Russia had 5 million troops based there: if you can’t supply them with food and ammunition they are neutralised.

Interesting theory?

 

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View Nicholas91's Profile Nicholas91 Flag The Democratic Republic of Kent 22 May 23 1.04pm Send a Private Message to Nicholas91 Add Nicholas91 as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

Absolutely. I'm sure people see it as some kind of grand awakening over time, and of course for those at the top of the tree on either social media or traditional media offshoots there is most often a financial imperative. I would wager that more often than not they are far more shrewd, calculating and less ideologically driven than their audience. More akin to an algorithym knowing what will go down well. And that's what social media comes down to also really; tailored to maximise interaction and eyeballs on screens and it's easier to do that by presenting more of the same, more extreme versions of the same and to get people riled up.

Above all it's sad that people get so pulled into it. A life well lived with family and friends has a whole range of views and perspectives and itself most often brings about a level of mutual respect and sensible discourse between individuals. All of that is lost online, and as you say when people damage their relationships with family and friends due to their conduct, they then either wake up to their behaviour, or it's grievance central in their new online life, with a typically scatter gun rage pointed at just about anything that doesn't resemble a mirror.

Couldn't agree more.

It's not a criticism, I have been pulled into certain thinking or a certain trajectory before on here let alone elsewhere, where it really can be intense, far more extreme and siloed (I'm guessing, Twitter asides I don't venture far!). Also, I am far less impressionable than I might have been in younger years or certainly as others might be.

If not extremely dangerous, which I believe it to be, it is very sad. It probably is appropriate to designate some circumstances as 'lives lost' to these very deep and entrapping rabbit holes.

Quite frankly, I have developed a rather large personal network over the years of friends, acquaintances and so on. This group is quite diverse with even a Plymouth fan amongst them! In all seriousness however that is due to my life circumstances and personality so not once have I ever vetted, or actually had to, those within my vicinity on the basis of their ideological slants or other characteristics. My guessing is those stuck online or at the ends of political spectrums are there in lieu of such networks and have therefore sought one where conscription to others' ways of thinking is the only requirement for membership. The end result usually resembles something close to either screaming in the street at people either dressed like you've been kicked through a haberdashery with rainbow coloured hair or imitating attendants at a German rally circa late 1930's.

I've begun to avoid N&P purposefully, for the aforementioned reasons, asides from a dip in here and there as I am still WFH and in my isolation quite enjoy talking about Palace with others. Nice to see a/some posts which hopefully provides grounding for others as it does me foodythoughts, albeit we've veered somewhat from Ukraine so I'll leave it there for now!

 


Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

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