China's peace plan would allow Russia to keep the Sea of Azov and the Russian-speaking territories seized by Russia in the Donbass, so we can understand the hurt to Ukraine.

There it could have ended but for Putin's disastrous invasion.

What peace plan does Washington or Europe, actually have? Pouring in weapons making Zelensky seriously think he can regain the Crimea?

If it's the situation that Russia is going to grind out victory regardless of its losses and as long as it may take, and Ukraine does not have nearly the munitions and men we think it does, this needs consideration.

Yeah, as in we all die.

I will say this, I never agreed with Putin's invasion decision....but like Farage and many others who warned over State department actions in Ukraine I don't accept the lies pushed that this war came out of nowhere and the whole Putin is Hitler nonsense.

It comes down to will...Ukraine isn't and wasn't in Nato....Personally I want peace and I don't care which slav owns what part of Slavic land. When I say that I don't mean there isn't a right or wrong, but that it isn't my fight. What it comes down to is what kind of response someone agrees is the right one.

Plenty of people here though are willing to spends fortunes we don't have....as they did with lockdowns....on this war.

I think....similar to the Syrian war....it's completely nuts and counter productive to our own interests and standard of living.

But hey, it doesn't matter what I think...it's going to happen anyway.

I can say it wasn't the hill I was willing to die on....not that it makes any difference.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 1.31pm)

I don't think Putin or Biden are good guys at all. Putin leads a mafia style state and Biden's a lying degenerate. However, this idea that essentially that 'Putin is Hitler' position isn't congruent with the history of the last thirty years. No one serious actually thinks it....but it's certainly the mainstream messaging because it's simple and black and white.

Ok, here are the objective arguments against this 'if we don't fight Putin now the old empire is coming back' position.

Anyone who was actually taking notice of the Russian military before this invasion could clearly see that they weren't set up for any long time strategy of retaking an old empire.

Look, retaking the old Soviet empire means attacking Nato countries.
It means a commitment to WW3.

Going beyond Ukraine wouldn't have the support of the BRIC countries.....who obviously don't want WW3 either.

Attacking non Nato countries who have aligned themselves to Nato without actually being in it.....possibly....Now the gloves are off I wouldn't put that pass them.

What is certainly true is that Russia is now going to spend a lot of money on weapons and a large and trained army....exactly the opposite of what should be happening.

What is certainly true is that now nuclear death is a realistic possibility for all of us.....irritatingly for me because, like Farage, I never agreed with any of the positions that led to this.

Things have escalated beyond what is safe and most people just don't get it because....as was being said, the mainstream isn't focused upon realities but on whether we should like Phillip Scofield or not.

I fear sabotage of our essential infrastructure, stuff like that....I wouldn't want to be Poland right now considering how hard they have gone on this...or us quite frankly.....I'm genuinely worried because I can't see any up side to anything we have done.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 6.42pm)

Certainly, the risk of WW3 is higher now than before, but only mad men would start it.

Ukraine is a free country, albeit corrupt, and it has the right to self determination.

Irrespective of what America does in terms of shady geopolitics, the Russians have attacked a country without justification. I just don't see how there can be no response from the West even if there is only a 10% of Putin doing the same thing to another non NATO former Soviet block country.

Of course, Putin is not Hitler, but he does have one of the biggest military forces in the world and apparently no qualms about unleashing it on civilians.

We're going to find out one way or the other.

I don't really subscribe to any narrative on this. I just know for a fact that Russia started an armed conflict in Europe, and that it has created an opportunity for the West to fight yet another proxy war in the name of 'freedom'.

Britain being the supposed strong man of Western Europe, and beholden to the US, is taking a lead in this unsurprisingly.

My overriding feeling on it is exasperation that in 21st century, Europeans are still fighting among ourselves.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 May 2023 8.34pm)