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Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 May 23 2.49pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by steeleye20

China's peace plan would allow Russia to keep the Sea of Azov and the Russian-speaking territories seized by Russia in the Donbass, so we can understand the hurt to Ukraine.

There it could have ended but for Putin's disastrous invasion.

What peace plan does Washington or Europe, actually have? Pouring in weapons making Zelensky seriously think he can regain the Crimea?

If it's the situation that Russia is going to grind out victory regardless of its losses and as long as it may take, and Ukraine does not have nearly the munitions and men we think it does, this needs consideration.

I think that's a realistic assessment. There has been a lack of realism about this war since it began.

Problem is that Biden and his administration have small man syndrome and can't take the L. Back at the start of this thread I was saying that this war was a disaster that needed de-escalation but we got the opposite instead.

One of the most dangerous things to do is to give a physically weak person a gun. They are less likely to make objective decisions if they perceive a threat. Unfortunately the Biden administration is full of fruitcakes and the US state department has had confrontational foreign policy for decades.

It's going to take a change of US administration to bring this to a sensible end....the left are always going on about how the next election could literally be life and death....well, this one could actually mean that.

Obviously I very much hope I'm wrong about that...for everybody, whether I like them or not.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 2.53pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View eaglesdare's Profile eaglesdare Flag 22 May 23 3.26pm Send a Private Message to eaglesdare Add eaglesdare as a friend

Originally posted by footythoughts

Peace talks require all sides to engage, rather than no sides. Blame on all sides. A lack of belief that any deal would be stuck to also, understandbaly.

Edited by footythoughts (22 May 2023 2.45pm)

Yes and the west dont want to give up all the money confiscated from the Russian oligarchs.

They got billions out of them!

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 22 May 23 4.33pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

A lot of big players seeking different outcomes. Some outcomes territorial, others financial. I wonder if the US is pushing any of their contractors to the head of the queue for any re-building work ?
And having China as a peace-broker as they seek to annex Taiwan. This whole thing is a fantasy fck-up.

Meanwhile let's see what's happening with Phillip Schofield and Graeme Souness.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 May 23 4.52pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

A lot of big players seeking different outcomes. Some outcomes territorial, others financial. I wonder if the US is pushing any of their contractors to the head of the queue for any re-building work ?
And having China as a peace-broker as they seek to annex Taiwan. This whole thing is a fantasy fck-up.

Meanwhile let's see what's happening with Phillip Schofield and Graeme Souness.

Pretty much.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 22 May 23 6.05pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yeah, as in we all die.

I will say this, I never agreed with Putin's invasion decision....but like Farage and many others who warned over State department actions in Ukraine I don't accept the lies pushed that this war came out of nowhere and the whole Putin is Hitler nonsense.

It comes down to will...Ukraine isn't and wasn't in Nato....Personally I want peace and I don't care which slav owns what part of Slavic land. When I say that I don't mean there isn't a right or wrong, but that it isn't my fight. What it comes down to is what kind of response someone agrees is the right one.

Plenty of people here though are willing to spends fortunes we don't have....as they did with lockdowns....on this war.

I think....similar to the Syrian war....it's completely nuts and counter productive to our own interests and standard of living.

But hey, it doesn't matter what I think...it's going to happen anyway.

I can say it wasn't the hill I was willing to die on....not that it makes any difference.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 1.31pm)

This is a game that has been going on since WW2.

Obviously, the threat of nuclear war is something that concerns us all and has done to a greater or lesser extent for our whole lives.
Sure, America has been messing in Ukraine just like they and Russia have in other countries, but if Putin were to have an easy ride in what he sees as a defensive measure, he might start getting a little more ambitious about what else he can do in the former Soviet block.
I know you think that this is unlikely also, but I wouldn't take a risk on that and let him take Ukraine without a huge cost.

Only mad men would create a real risk of WW3 because there is no victory or profit in it. Ultimately, a negotiated peace is the best solution, but you can't expect Ukraine to just pretend this hasn't happened.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 22 May 23 6.39pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

This is a game that has been going on since WW2.

Obviously, the threat of nuclear war is something that concerns us all and has done to a greater or lesser extent for our whole lives.
Sure, America has been messing in Ukraine just like they and Russia have in other countries, but if Putin were to have an easy ride in what he sees as a defensive measure, he might start getting a little more ambitious about what else he can do in the former Soviet block.
I know you think that this is unlikely also, but I wouldn't take a risk on that and let him take Ukraine without a huge cost.

Only mad men would create a real risk of WW3 because there is no victory or profit in it. Ultimately, a negotiated peace is the best solution, but you can't expect Ukraine to just pretend this hasn't happened.

I don't think Putin or Biden are good guys at all. Putin leads a mafia style state and Biden's a lying degenerate. However, this idea that essentially that 'Putin is Hitler' position isn't congruent with the history of the last thirty years. No one serious actually thinks it....but it's certainly the mainstream messaging because it's simple and black and white.

Ok, here are the objective arguments against this 'if we don't fight Putin now the old empire is coming back' position.

Anyone who was actually taking notice of the Russian military before this invasion could clearly see that they weren't set up for any long time strategy of retaking an old empire.

Look, retaking the old Soviet empire means attacking Nato countries.
It means a commitment to WW3.

Going beyond Ukraine wouldn't have the support of the BRIC countries.....who obviously don't want WW3 either.

Attacking non Nato countries who have aligned themselves to Nato without actually being in it.....possibly....Now the gloves are off I wouldn't put that pass them.

What is certainly true is that Russia is now going to spend a lot of money on weapons and a large and trained army....exactly the opposite of what should be happening.

What is certainly true is that now nuclear death is a realistic possibility for all of us.....irritatingly for me because, like Farage, I never agreed with any of the positions that led to this.

Things have escalated beyond what is safe and most people just don't get it because....as was being said, the mainstream isn't focused upon realities but on whether we should like Phillip Scofield or not.

I fear sabotage of our essential infrastructure, stuff like that....I wouldn't want to be Poland right now considering how hard they have gone on this...or us quite frankly.....I'm genuinely worried because I can't see any up side to anything we have done.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 6.42pm)

 


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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 23 May 23 10.49am Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I don't think Putin or Biden are good guys at all. Putin leads a mafia style state and Biden's a lying degenerate. However, this idea that essentially that 'Putin is Hitler' position isn't congruent with the history of the last thirty years. No one serious actually thinks it....but it's certainly the mainstream messaging because it's simple and black and white.

Ok, here are the objective arguments against this 'if we don't fight Putin now the old empire is coming back' position.

Anyone who was actually taking notice of the Russian military before this invasion could clearly see that they weren't set up for any long time strategy of retaking an old empire.

Look, retaking the old Soviet empire means attacking Nato countries.
It means a commitment to WW3.

Going beyond Ukraine wouldn't have the support of the BRIC countries.....who obviously don't want WW3 either.

Attacking non Nato countries who have aligned themselves to Nato without actually being in it.....possibly....Now the gloves are off I wouldn't put that pass them.

What is certainly true is that Russia is now going to spend a lot of money on weapons and a large and trained army....exactly the opposite of what should be happening.

What is certainly true is that now nuclear death is a realistic possibility for all of us.....irritatingly for me because, like Farage, I never agreed with any of the positions that led to this.

Things have escalated beyond what is safe and most people just don't get it because....as was being said, the mainstream isn't focused upon realities but on whether we should like Phillip Scofield or not.

I fear sabotage of our essential infrastructure, stuff like that....I wouldn't want to be Poland right now considering how hard they have gone on this...or us quite frankly.....I'm genuinely worried because I can't see any up side to anything we have done.

Edited by Stirlingsays (22 May 2023 6.42pm)

Certainly, the risk of WW3 is higher now than before, but only mad men would start it.

Ukraine is a free country, albeit corrupt, and it has the right to self determination.

Irrespective of what America does in terms of shady geopolitics, the Russians have attacked a country without justification. I just don't see how there can be no response from the West even if there is only a 10% of Putin doing the same thing to another non NATO former Soviet block country.

Of course, Putin is not Hitler, but he does have one of the biggest military forces in the world and apparently no qualms about unleashing it on civilians.

 

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footythoughts Flag Beckenham 23 May 23 6.55pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Certainly, the risk of WW3 is higher now than before, but only mad men would start it.

Ukraine is a free country, albeit corrupt, and it has the right to self determination.

Irrespective of what America does in terms of shady geopolitics, the Russians have attacked a country without justification. I just don't see how there can be no response from the West even if there is only a 10% of Putin doing the same thing to another non NATO former Soviet block country.

Of course, Putin is not Hitler, but he does have one of the biggest military forces in the world and apparently no qualms about unleashing it on civilians.

Correct. No response would itself be a limp, failed response. An encouragement.

Edited by footythoughts (23 May 2023 6.57pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 May 23 7.13pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Certainly, the risk of WW3 is higher now than before, but only mad men would start it.

Ukraine is a free country, albeit corrupt, and it has the right to self determination.

Irrespective of what America does in terms of shady geopolitics, the Russians have attacked a country without justification. I just don't see how there can be no response from the West even if there is only a 10% of Putin doing the same thing to another non NATO former Soviet block country.

Of course, Putin is not Hitler, but he does have one of the biggest military forces in the world and apparently no qualms about unleashing it on civilians.

Ukraine's a free country? Not really, just look into it.

After being a neo con on Iraq and learning from it my position is not to advocate for wars that I wouldn't personally fight in....I think a lot of wars would be stopped that way.

I've given rock solid reasons why the narrative about Russia taking over the empire is a propaganda narrative, but if you don't accept it because of a ten percent chance then cool....I think the consequences of what we are doing leads to much worse outcomes.

I don't think we can just shrug off state department policy and while I agree that a response is warranted my position is far closer to Orban's than Biden's.

If that's where you are on this it's where you are.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 May 2023 7.20pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 23 May 23 8.33pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Ukraine's a free country? Not really, just look into it.

After being a neo con on Iraq and learning from it my position is not to advocate for wars that I wouldn't personally fight in....I think a lot of wars would be stopped that way.

I've given rock solid reasons why the narrative about Russia taking over the empire is a propaganda narrative, but if you don't accept it because of a ten percent chance then cool....I think the consequences of what we are doing leads to much worse outcomes.

I don't think we can just shrug off state department policy and while I agree that a response is warranted my position is far closer to Orban's than Biden's.

If that's where you are on this it's where you are.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 May 2023 7.20pm)

We're going to find out one way or the other.

I don't really subscribe to any narrative on this. I just know for a fact that Russia started an armed conflict in Europe, and that it has created an opportunity for the West to fight yet another proxy war in the name of 'freedom'.

Britain being the supposed strong man of Western Europe, and beholden to the US, is taking a lead in this unsurprisingly.

My overriding feeling on it is exasperation that in 21st century, Europeans are still fighting among ourselves.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 May 2023 8.34pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 May 23 9.24pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

We're going to find out one way or the other.

I don't really subscribe to any narrative on this. I just know for a fact that Russia started an armed conflict in Europe, and that it has created an opportunity for the West to fight yet another proxy war in the name of 'freedom'.

Britain being the supposed strong man of Western Europe, and beholden to the US, is taking a lead in this unsurprisingly.

My overriding feeling on it is exasperation that in 21st century, Europeans are still fighting among ourselves.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 May 2023 8.34pm)

Oh brother it's as depressing as hell.

Every death is a tragedy. However it ends lets pray that it ends as soon as possible.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 24 May 23 5.28am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Prigozhin admits to at least 20,000 Wagner deaths in Bakhmut in a recent interview. He's normally very blunt and seems one of the more honest speakers in this conflict.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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