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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jul 17 5.21pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not really, once the Battle of Midway was done, the Japanese capacity for a naval invasion was non-existent - Doing so would have left Japan open to the US main fleet. Russia had assistance from the Allies, but primarily the US. Militarily, the Russians were largely dependent on three factors for victory, disposable man power, their own capacity for production (notably of artillery and tanks) and the German military's inability to properly re-equip suitably for defence following the halt of the blitzkrieg style assault. A problem the German military didn't have in Europe, where the initial speed of their attack and rapid advance led to them overrunning the European forces. However this wasn't the case on the Russian front, and the German military had monumentally overstretched their supply lines, and were ill equipped to defend territory and for winter - allowing the Soviets to regroup and counter attack. The Germans were also plagued by the soviet backed and organised partisans operating from within Poland right through the Ukraine and Russian territory - who specifically targeted the supply lines. Add that to the Russian Scorched Earth Policy, and the Germans war effort was doomed to failure by the end of 1941. At this point the UK forces were desperately re-equipping in the UK and incapable of opening a second front in mainland Europe. Again, this is not taking into account the effort required by Germany to fight on several fronts. Were the Allies not in the War, Russia would not have been on the offensive at all. America could have won the War alone against both Germany and Japan but the time frame for that is obviously unknown. It is certainly conceivable that Japan could have occupied Australia and New Zealand within that time. It can't be proved or disproved.
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the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 19 Jul 17 5.37pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
So if Germany had not been fighting the British and the Americans on two other fronts the result would have been the same? I don't think so. I didn't say that. Though the failed invasion of Russia was ultimately Hitler's undoing. Fighting a War on 2 fronts simply stretched the Germans too far. Especially leaving the Western front weakly defended, believing it to be more or less invincible. But that's all a different argument. You said Russia would not have been on the offensive without allied involvement. I don't think there is any evidence to back that up. Whether they would have taken Poland and ultimately Berlin (without British/American involvement), can't be answered definitely. Certainly the Germans were ridiculously overstretched due to the failed invasion of the Soviet Union.
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jul 17 5.41pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yes. Pretty much, the only difference would be that Russian would have been a far more popular language in Western Europe. By the time of the Normandy landings the Soviet had won the Battle of Stalingrad, Moscow and Leningrad and rolled over the Germans at Kursk in July 1943 (the last real German offensive on the Eastern Front). Although in fairness, British spies did tell the Russians where the Germans would attack, and the invasion of Sicily did draw down German reserves for Kursk somewhat. But the reality was that it wouldn't have made much difference. The second front the UK and Allies launched sped up the war in the East, and almost certainly prevented the Russian war machine from 'liberating' all of Europe. The Germans just couldn't cope with casualties in the way the Russians could. In a protracted war with only Russia, I believe that German superiority in innovation would have seen Russia surrender when the Germans dropped H bombs on their major cities, They would have also developed long range missiles and jet aircraft. Even with superior man power the Russians would have had to overpower the Germans within say 6 years to be victorious. This is all a stretch because it is unlikely that a full scale war between two major nationns would have occured without escalation.
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the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 19 Jul 17 5.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Again, this is not taking into account the effort required by Germany to fight on several fronts. Were the Allies not in the War, Russia would not have been on the offensive at all. America could have won the War alone against both Germany and Japan but the time frame for that is obviously unknown. It is certainly conceivable that Japan could have occupied Australia and New Zealand within that time. It can't be proved or disproved. Before the A-bomb, and assuming the German forces were concentrated along the Northern/Western European shore, America couldn't have done it without ridiculous casualties. Imagine a D-day landing with 10 times the German forces there. German forces were thin on the ground, due to the push on the Eastern front. Without that D-day wouldn't have been possible.
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the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 19 Jul 17 5.48pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
In a protracted war with only Russia, I believe that German superiority in innovation would have seen Russia surrender when the Germans dropped H bombs on their major cities, They would have also developed long range missiles and jet aircraft. Even with superior man power the Russians would have had to overpower the Germans within say 6 years to be victorious. This is all a stretch because it is unlikely that a full scale war between two major nationns would have occured without escalation. Long range missiles - yep, they were way ahead of anyone on that. Jet aircraft - yep they had a head start, so again completely plausible, except the German Jet aircraft had seriously short range. But the H bomb? Is there any evidence to say they were close to developing that?
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jul 17 5.52pm | |
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Originally posted by the_mcanuff_stuff
I didn't say that. Though the failed invasion of Russia was ultimately Hitler's undoing. Fighting a War on 2 fronts simply stretched the Germans too far. Especially leaving the Western front weakly defended, believing it to be more or less invincible. But that's all a different argument. You said Russia would not have been on the offensive without allied involvement. I don't think there is any evidence to back that up. Whether they would have taken Poland and ultimately Berlin (without British/American involvement), can't be answered definitely. Certainly the Germans were ridiculously overstretched due to the failed invasion of the Soviet Union. Er really? The underlined sums it up and makes your assertion about me being 'plain wrong' a bit silly. How can you know? If the Russians had met the full force of the Nazi war machine their ability to mount a counter attack is questionable and unknown. Also, they were saved primarily by the weather. How well would they have faired in the Spring and Summer with German supply lines unaffected?
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jul 17 5.57pm | |
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Originally posted by the_mcanuff_stuff
Long range missiles - yep, they were way ahead of anyone on that. Jet aircraft - yep they had a head start, so again completely plausible, except the German Jet aircraft had seriously short range. But the H bomb? Is there any evidence to say they were close to developing that? The H bomb was inevitable if the war had gone on long enough. Short range bombers are fine if you create fueling stations close enough to the targets. Jet aircraft also ensure air superiority.
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jul 17 5.58pm | |
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Originally posted by the_mcanuff_stuff
Before the A-bomb, and assuming the German forces were concentrated along the Northern/Western European shore, America couldn't have done it without ridiculous casualties. Imagine a D-day landing with 10 times the German forces there. German forces were thin on the ground, due to the push on the Eastern front. Without that D-day wouldn't have been possible. They were prepared to take them as D-Day showed.
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Stirlingsays 19 Jul 17 5.58pm | |
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The German army was an amazing fighting force. It's a massive generalization but Hitler lost a very winnable war.....He over-extended. Thank god. The same fools around before Hitler....fools who under priorise defence are still with us today. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Jul 2017 5.59pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Hrolf The Ganger 19 Jul 17 6.11pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The German army was an amazing fighting force. It's a massive generalization but Hitler lost a very winnable war.....He over-extended. Thank god. The same fools around before Hitler....fools who under priorise defence are still with us today. Edited by Stirlingsays (19 Jul 2017 5.59pm) It was their own incompetence that cost them Britain but with their losses in the Russian winter of '41 and America entering the War around the same time, there was only going to be one result.
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monkey Sittingbourne,Kent 19 Jul 17 6.31pm | |
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Let's face it, this last series was dross and it needed a serious shake up, so good on them. Also at least it's someone us pervs can dribble over as I seriously miss Jenna Coleman
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Stirlingsays 19 Jul 17 6.58pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It was their own incompetence that cost them Britain but with their losses in the Russian winter of '41 and America entering the War around the same time, there was only going to be one result. Hitler knew the risk of a second front but he gambled anyway. The early success went to his head. If he had consolidated in Europe and tackled Russia piecemeal. Still, what he didn't achieve militarily......Economically a few generations later....blah blah blah.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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