Grooming Gangs + Tommy Robinson Thread

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DanH SW2 30 Jul 19 2.54pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I just say it as I see it Wisbech. In black and white right?
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DanH

SW2 30 Jul 19 2.54pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I just say it as I see it Wisbech.

In black and white right?

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becky over the moon 30 Jul 19 3.06pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle We start by banning faith schools. Of all sorts and for all religions. All children from whatever background need to leave their religion at home and learn British values while at school. No exceptions. It would cause an enormous uproar and mass protests but it is a critical first step in reversing the current drift. Let the children experience alternative thinking and learn new values. Let them make new friends outside of their immediate circle. Let them challenge the set ways of their parent's generation. You can already see this happening with some more progressive youngsters. We need to encourage it, whilst explaining why. For me this is the only practical way forward. Moaning and groaning about what might have been and who is to blame get's us no-where at all. It will take a long time and we will face significant disruption from activists which could cause mayhem but we need to face up to it and bite the bullet. What is your solution? You do realise that if you banned all the CofE schools in the country the entire education system (especially Primary) would collapse...... there aren't enough places already so where would they all go? A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 30 Jul 19 3.06pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

We start by banning faith schools. Of all sorts and for all religions. All children from whatever background need to leave their religion at home and learn British values while at school. No exceptions.

It would cause an enormous uproar and mass protests but it is a critical first step in reversing the current drift.

Let the children experience alternative thinking and learn new values. Let them make new friends outside of their immediate circle. Let them challenge the set ways of their parent's generation.

You can already see this happening with some more progressive youngsters. We need to encourage it, whilst explaining why.

For me this is the only practical way forward. Moaning and groaning about what might have been and who is to blame get's us no-where at all. It will take a long time and we will face significant disruption from activists which could cause mayhem but we need to face up to it and bite the bullet.

What is your solution?

You do realise that if you banned all the CofE schools in the country the entire education system (especially Primary) would collapse...... there aren't enough places already so where would they all go?

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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Wisbech Eagle Online Truro Cornwall 30 Jul 19 3.13pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by becky You do realise that if you banned all the CofE schools in the country the entire education system (especially Primary) would collapse...... there aren't enough places already so where would they all go? You don't close any of them! You just remove the religious involvement which in many cases for most Christian Churches is very tenuous these days anyway. There might be some more resistance from the RC Church which owns both the land and the buildings and is likely to make more of a fuss, so compulsory purchases might be needed if negotiations failed. I don't have a blueprint for the detail, just the basic idea. There would likely be a much stronger objection from some other faiths, which would need to be handled sensitively but firmly as it send out the strong message about what is acceptable and what is not. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle Online

Truro Cornwall 30 Jul 19 3.13pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by becky

You don't close any of them!

You just remove the religious involvement which in many cases for most Christian Churches is very tenuous these days anyway. There might be some more resistance from the RC Church which owns both the land and the buildings and is likely to make more of a fuss, so compulsory purchases might be needed if negotiations failed. I don't have a blueprint for the detail, just the basic idea.

There would likely be a much stronger objection from some other faiths, which would need to be handled sensitively but firmly as it send out the strong message about what is acceptable and what is not.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Jul 19 3.35pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by DanH In black and white right? Is your entire contribution just trolling now? It isn't even good trolling.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Jul 19 3.35pm

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This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by DanH

In black and white right?

Is your entire contribution just trolling now?

It isn't even good trolling.

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 30 Jul 19 3.39pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You don't close any of them! You just remove the religious involvement which in many cases for most Christian Churches is very tenuous these days anyway. There might be some more resistance from the RC Church which owns both the land and the buildings and is likely to make more of a fuss, so compulsory purchases might be needed if negotiations failed. I don't have a blueprint for the detail, just the basic idea. There would likely be a much stronger objection from some other faiths, which would need to be handled sensitively but firmly as it send out the strong message about what is acceptable and what is not. So there's a problem with a radical element of just one religion. Your solution? Ban all faith schools. Great. And one of the countries where religion is banned? North Korea. Edited by Penge Eagle (30 Jul 2019 3.44pm)
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 30 Jul 19 3.39pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You don't close any of them!

So there's a problem with a radical element of just one religion. Your solution? Ban all faith schools. Great.

And one of the countries where religion is banned? North Korea.

Edited by Penge Eagle (30 Jul 2019 3.44pm)

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Jul 19 3.51pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Penge Eagle So there's a problem with a radical element of just one religion. Your solution? Ban all faith schools. Great. And one of the countries where religion is banned? North Korea. Edited by Penge Eagle (30 Jul 2019 3.44pm) I think there is a big difference between phasing out religion based schools and banning religion. Religion is a personal matter but the spreading of superstitions as fact via formal education cannot be positive.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Jul 19 3.51pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

So there's a problem with a radical element of just one religion. Your solution? Ban all faith schools. Great.

And one of the countries where religion is banned? North Korea.

Edited by Penge Eagle (30 Jul 2019 3.44pm)

I think there is a big difference between phasing out religion based schools and banning religion.

Religion is a personal matter but the spreading of superstitions as fact via formal education cannot be positive.

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Stirlingsays Online 30 Jul 19 5.06pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I think there is a big difference between phasing out religion based schools and banning religion. Religion is a personal matter but the spreading of superstitions as fact via formal education cannot be positive. We can't just blank out our heritage. While I agree with you about formal education......This forms part of our culture and history and I don't feel comfortable blanking it out when it hasn't been the over-riding problem.....for a start children need to be taught our Judeo Christian heritage....it informs everything.....Children today don't even know about the main old testament stories. They could be taught in the same way Jordan Peterson teaches them....extracting the underlying messages and history without the religious requirement. Indeed formal western education first came from the churches.....there needs to be some touchstone and connection to it.....even if it's just the names, history and the structures. Christianity would probably accept this....at least without violence anyway.... but other religions just wouldn't......religion and identity are linked with true believers. I'm not a believer but I don't equate or equalise a Church with other religious buildings.....my heritage is with one....for all its flaws..... and not the others. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2019 5.41pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

30 Jul 19 5.06pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I think there is a big difference between phasing out religion based schools and banning religion.

Religion is a personal matter but the spreading of superstitions as fact via formal education cannot be positive.

We can't just blank out our heritage.

While I agree with you about formal education......This forms part of our culture and history and I don't feel comfortable blanking it out when it hasn't been the over-riding problem.....for a start children need to be taught our Judeo Christian heritage....it informs everything.....Children today don't even know about the main old testament stories.

They could be taught in the same way Jordan Peterson teaches them....extracting the underlying messages and history without the religious requirement.

Indeed formal western education first came from the churches.....there needs to be some touchstone and connection to it.....even if it's just the names, history and the structures.

Christianity would probably accept this....at least without violence anyway.... but other religions just wouldn't......religion and identity are linked with true believers.

I'm not a believer but I don't equate or equalise a Church with other religious buildings.....my heritage is with one....for all its flaws..... and not the others.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2019 5.41pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 30 Jul 19 5.31pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Laicite seems to not really have curbed any of the radicalism or attacks in France. Perhaps we need to wheel out the dragon and send for St. George? Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 30 Jul 19 5.31pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Laicite seems to not really have curbed any of the radicalism or attacks in France.
Perhaps we need to wheel out the dragon and send for St. George?

Red and Blue Army!

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Jul 19 5.49pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Stirlingsays We can't just blank out our heritage. While I agree with you about formal education......This forms part of our culture and history and I don't feel comfortable blanking it out when it hasn't been the over-riding problem.....for a start children need to be taught our Judeo Christian heritage....it informs everything.....Children today don't even know about the main old testament stories. Instead formal western education first came from the churches.....there needs to be some touchstone and connection to it.....even if it's just the names, history and the structures. Christianity would probably accept this....at least without violence anyway.... but other religions just wouldn't......religion and identity are linked with true believers. I'm not a believer but I don't equate or equalise a Church with other religious buildings.....my heritage is with one and not the others. Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2019 5.38pm) I don't think there should be any erasing of historical heritage. The Christian religion has been a reality in our culture for a long time, but aspects of it are no more appropriate for the 21st century than ritual sacrifice. No one is asking to retain paganism in the national curriculum so should we be happily accepting superstitious mumbo jumbo or monotheistic worship? Of course, we must learn about religion, but that is a long way from having theocratic twaddle taught as fact. Of course, all this must apply with equal measure to all religions. That still leaves plenty of room for religious activity in places of worship and at home. Personally, I think the spread of Islam and the sight of Mosques popping up everywhere is a depressing sight. Not because they are Muslim but because they represent retrograde and non Western thinking. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Jul 2019 6.03pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Jul 19 5.49pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

We can't just blank out our heritage.

Instead formal western education first came from the churches.....there needs to be some touchstone and connection to it.....even if it's just the names, history and the structures.

Christianity would probably accept this....at least without violence anyway.... but other religions just wouldn't......religion and identity are linked with true believers.

I'm not a believer but I don't equate or equalise a Church with other religious buildings.....my heritage is with one and not the others.

Edited by Stirlingsays (30 Jul 2019 5.38pm)

I don't think there should be any erasing of historical heritage.
The Christian religion has been a reality in our culture for a long time, but aspects of it are no more appropriate for the 21st century than ritual sacrifice.

No one is asking to retain paganism in the national curriculum so should we be happily accepting superstitious mumbo jumbo or monotheistic worship?

Of course, we must learn about religion, but that is a long way from having theocratic twaddle taught as fact.

Of course, all this must apply with equal measure to all religions.
That still leaves plenty of room for religious activity in places of worship and at home.

Personally, I think the spread of Islam and the sight of Mosques popping up everywhere is a depressing sight. Not because they are Muslim but because they represent retrograde and non Western thinking.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Jul 2019 6.03pm)

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cryrst The garden of England 30 Jul 19 7.11pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I don't think there should be any erasing of historical heritage. The Christian religion has been a reality in our culture for a long time, but aspects of it are no more appropriate for the 21st century than ritual sacrifice. No one is asking to retain paganism in the national curriculum so should we be happily accepting superstitious mumbo jumbo or monotheistic worship? Of course, we must learn about religion, but that is a long way from having theocratic twaddle taught as fact. Of course, all this must apply with equal measure to all religions. That still leaves plenty of room for religious activity in places of worship and at home. Personally, I think the spread of Islam and the sight of Mosques popping up everywhere is a depressing sight. Not because they are Muslim but because they represent retrograde and non Western thinking. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Jul 2019 6.03pm) I think the last bit is a bit harsh. I'm sure the huge majority of muslims dont want to really live by the book as the west see it. The qoran must as most literature be able to be read two ways. What some see as us and us alone isnt really what a majority think. I wish that the strength of the majority in the Islamic faith would shout down the minority but until that happens we are were we are sadly. I dont practice but should as I am a catholic. I'm married 29 years but to the catholic church I'm not as it wasnt blessed. This is very old fashioned but part of the belief. Maybe a sharing of thoughts and beliefs like middle ground would help. I dont know how but mixed religions would be a start. Maybe we should have mosqches.
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cryrst

The garden of England 30 Jul 19 7.11pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

No one is asking to retain paganism in the national curriculum so should we be happily accepting superstitious mumbo jumbo or monotheistic worship?

Of course, we must learn about religion, but that is a long way from having theocratic twaddle taught as fact.

Of course, all this must apply with equal measure to all religions.
That still leaves plenty of room for religious activity in places of worship and at home.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (30 Jul 2019 6.03pm)

I think the last bit is a bit harsh.
I'm sure the huge majority of muslims dont want to really live by the book as the west see it.
The qoran must as most literature be able to be read two ways.
What some see as us and us alone isnt really what a majority think.
I wish that the strength of the majority in the Islamic faith would shout down the minority but until that happens we are were we are sadly.
I dont practice but should as I am a catholic.
I'm married 29 years but to the catholic church I'm not as it wasnt blessed. This is very old fashioned but part of the belief.
Maybe a sharing of thoughts and beliefs like middle ground would help.
I dont know how but mixed religions would be a start.
Maybe we should have mosqches.

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Hrolf The Ganger 30 Jul 19 9.03pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by cryrst I think the last bit is a bit harsh. I'm sure the huge majority of muslims dont want to really live by the book as the west see it. The qoran must as most literature be able to be read two ways. What some see as us and us alone isnt really what a majority think. I wish that the strength of the majority in the Islamic faith would shout down the minority but until that happens we are were we are sadly. I dont practice but should as I am a catholic. I'm married 29 years but to the catholic church I'm not as it wasnt blessed. This is very old fashioned but part of the belief. Maybe a sharing of thoughts and beliefs like middle ground would help. I dont know how but mixed religions would be a start. Maybe we should have mosqches. Religion is divisive by its very nature so I doubt anyone religious would want to mix up their beliefs with others. I don't think I'm being harsh about the spread of Islam. Christianity is largely seen through a filter of 500 years of enlightenment. The Catholic church not so much but Islam still very much controls the lives of many of its followers. It is a religion that still lives in the past as it is often arriving here from parts of the world that have hardly changed in those 500 years. This is not desirable if we want people to move past religious dogma and embrace free thinking and self determination.
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Hrolf The Ganger

30 Jul 19 9.03pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by cryrst

Religion is divisive by its very nature so I doubt anyone religious would want to mix up their beliefs with others.
I don't think I'm being harsh about the spread of Islam. Christianity is largely seen through a filter of 500 years of enlightenment. The Catholic church not so much but Islam still very much controls the lives of many of its followers. It is a religion that still lives in the past as it is often arriving here from parts of the world that have hardly changed in those 500 years.
This is not desirable if we want people to move past religious dogma and embrace free thinking and self determination.

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Wisbech Eagle Online Truro Cornwall 30 Jul 19 10.06pm
This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Religion is divisive by its very nature so I doubt anyone religious would want to mix up their beliefs with others. I don't think I'm being harsh about the spread of Islam. Christianity is largely seen through a filter of 500 years of enlightenment. The Catholic church not so much but Islam still very much controls the lives of many of its followers. It is a religion that still lives in the past as it is often arriving here from parts of the world that have hardly changed in those 500 years. This is not desirable if we want people to move past religious dogma and embrace free thinking and self determination. I am enjoying reading your contributions on this subject as they mirror my own feelings almost precisely. No-one need fear that the importance of Christianity to the development of our culture will be overlooked. Indeed it must be taught to all children, from whatever background, along with how religious beliefs have played roles in many countries in many ways, both positively and negatively. We need to teach the children about religion, but not teach them a religion. Make them curious to find out more, if they wish to, but not just about the religion of their parents. There is another related issue which I believe will need to be addressed. That is home schooling, which has become very popular in the USA within religious families who want their kids educated in a particular way and don't believe the state system provides this. It is happening in the UK too and showed a 40% increase in the 3 years to 2018. I think this needs to be stopped for anything other than reasons of disability, or location. Home schooling because of a parent's religious beliefs should no longer qualify a child to be home schooled. If a child can attend a school then they should attend a school. There are strong social reasons why a child will become a better adjusted adult if they learn in the company of others, but that isn't the primary reason I think this is necessary. Home schooling is particularly popular with traditional Catholic and other strongly religious families. I can imagine that if we don't take action to reverse this trend then the current growth will become a flood if we remove all religious influence from the schools, which would defeat the purpose of such a change. I don't know how many Islamic parents home school but we need to avoid them being able to do so, alongside all parents, just because of their beliefs. What do others think? For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle Online

Truro Cornwall 30 Jul 19 10.06pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'BBC fake news - Tommy Robinson' by Midlands Eagle

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I am enjoying reading your contributions on this subject as they mirror my own feelings almost precisely.

No-one need fear that the importance of Christianity to the development of our culture will be overlooked. Indeed it must be taught to all children, from whatever background, along with how religious beliefs have played roles in many countries in many ways, both positively and negatively. We need to teach the children about religion, but not teach them a religion. Make them curious to find out more, if they wish to, but not just about the religion of their parents.

There is another related issue which I believe will need to be addressed. That is home schooling, which has become very popular in the USA within religious families who want their kids educated in a particular way and don't believe the state system provides this.

It is happening in the UK too and showed a 40% increase in the 3 years to 2018.

I think this needs to be stopped for anything other than reasons of disability, or location. Home schooling because of a parent's religious beliefs should no longer qualify a child to be home schooled. If a child can attend a school then they should attend a school.

There are strong social reasons why a child will become a better adjusted adult if they learn in the company of others, but that isn't the primary reason I think this is necessary.

Home schooling is particularly popular with traditional Catholic and other strongly religious families. I can imagine that if we don't take action to reverse this trend then the current growth will become a flood if we remove all religious influence from the schools, which would defeat the purpose of such a change.

I don't know how many Islamic parents home school but we need to avoid them being able to do so, alongside all parents, just because of their beliefs.

What do others think?

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

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