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December 14 2019 4.14pm

Grenfell - who's to blame

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View dollardays's Profile dollardays Flag 06 Nov 19 2.08am Send a Private Message to dollardays Add dollardays as a friend

Originally posted by ASCPFC

I want to know if it turns out that someone had about 15 plugs from one socket and the fire was caused by a short - will it still be everyone else's fault? Particularly if it was then delayed in being reported?
Lack of any type of personal responsibility rife these days. No doubt though, even if something like that caused the fire - we won't be told.
Obviously the cladding spread the fire but it had to start somewhere. Just a thought.

[Link]

Possibly the above.


Edited by dollardays (06 Nov 2019 2.10am)

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 06 Nov 19 9.55am Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

How or why that fire started in the flat is not the issue. Fires happen. Faulty wiring happens. Just a fact of life. The only issue is why that building was clad in that material. That is why all those poor people died.

And what is being pushed to one side. Brushed under the carpet. All this froth around the fire-brigade and the prosecutions of the people trying to scrounge in the aftermath is pure BS. Classic political distraction techniques and I suspect one that our entire political class is embracing.

Playing up to ALL of our collective worse sensibilities. We need to acknowledge that. Our venal, self-aggrandizing political elite at its very worst.

No cladding, no deaths. It is as simple as that. The fire-brigade response was perfectly in line with the known 'facts' prior to the incident getting underway. Certainly worthy of retrospection but still a matter of internal LFB consideration. Not a public enquiry and certainly not before the main question with regards to how that cladding came to be in place to start with.

Cladding. Cladding. Cladding. That is it. That is why that tower block was turned into a torch. Why was it up there? Who passed it as being safe? What were the process? The policy?

I am firmly of the Right. Make no bones about that. But my political antennae are twitching away like anything because this stinks and goes well beyond the usual slings and arrows of the 'game'. With politicians from all sides of the divide playing their part in ensuring that the cladding question is not being given the absolute prominence it deserves. That is the rot in all of this.

Forget everything else. All merely window dressing. The key lays in the process as to why that cladding went up on that building.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 06 Nov 19 11.08am Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

How or why that fire started in the flat is not the issue. Fires happen. Faulty wiring happens. Just a fact of life. The only issue is why that building was clad in that material. That is why all those poor people died.

And what is being pushed to one side. Brushed under the carpet. All this froth around the fire-brigade and the prosecutions of the people trying to scrounge in the aftermath is pure BS. Classic political distraction techniques and I suspect one that our entire political class is embracing.

Playing up to ALL of our collective worse sensibilities. We need to acknowledge that. Our venal, self-aggrandizing political elite at its very worst.

No cladding, no deaths. It is as simple as that. The fire-brigade response was perfectly in line with the known 'facts' prior to the incident getting underway. Certainly worthy of retrospection but still a matter of internal LFB consideration. Not a public enquiry and certainly not before the main question with regards to how that cladding came to be in place to start with.

Cladding. Cladding. Cladding. That is it. That is why that tower block was turned into a torch. Why was it up there? Who passed it as being safe? What were the process? The policy?

I am firmly of the Right. Make no bones about that. But my political antennae are twitching away like anything because this stinks and goes well beyond the usual slings and arrows of the 'game'. With politicians from all sides of the divide playing their part in ensuring that the cladding question is not being given the absolute prominence it deserves. That is the rot in all of this.

Forget everything else. All merely window dressing. The key lays in the process as to why that cladding went up on that building.

The enquiry is going to get to the building side of it.
There is a process which will get to investigating causes effects and prevention.

 

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View W12's Profile W12 Flag 06 Nov 19 2.10pm Send a Private Message to W12 Add W12 as a friend

Originally posted by ex hibitionist

it was a tragic accident that happened because of the cladding, you are bringing race into it, isn't the issue the rich crapping on the poor ... 'evil white men?!' what has the racial (and sexual) demographic of the culprits or victims got to do with this? there is a clear undertone to your comment which betrays some fantasy idea that the complaint is based in the inability of a coloured underclass who can't afford a better place to live - maybe they should be grateful they had any cladding at all, maybe if there's a similar fire that kills a load of plumbers from Essex you'll be able to see more clearly.

Doreen Lawrence brought race into it along with many other talking heads from various "communities"......and the media ran with it.

 

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View ex hibitionist's Profile ex hibitionist Flag Hastings 06 Nov 19 7.15pm Send a Private Message to ex hibitionist Add ex hibitionist as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

The enquiry is going to get to the building side of it.
There is a process which will get to investigating causes effects and prevention.

and that process involves smearing the LFB first before a possible two year delay until the decision makers are scrutinised - and well done Matov - abs spot on.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 06 Nov 19 7.55pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by ex hibitionist

and that process involves smearing the LFB first before a possible two year delay until the decision makers are scrutinised - and well done Matov - abs spot on.

The LFB made mistakes.
Should everyone apart from the emergency services be implicated.
The fact they have been pulled up will save many lives going forwards.
It takes disasters to get change.
100 years ago at ypres it took one day and 20k dead for the army to realise a mistake and make changes.
History shows this.
I dont think its personal.

 

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 06 Nov 19 8.13pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

The LFB made mistakes.
Should everyone apart from the emergency services be implicated.
The fact they have been pulled up will save many lives going forwards.
It takes disasters to get change.
100 years ago at ypres it took one day and 20k dead for the army to realise a mistake and make changes.
History shows this.
I dont think its personal.

Do tower blocks without cladding have to have the stay put advice rescinded?
LFB were not responsible for the tower burning down.
Easy target to pick on and any suggestion of racism is disgusting.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 06 Nov 19 8.20pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by sickboy

Do tower blocks without cladding have to have the stay put advice rescinded?
LFB were not responsible for the tower burning down.
Easy target to pick on and any suggestion of racism is disgusting.

No they didnt clad the building or set it on fire.
The truth is they made mistakes on the night.
Whether through a building being not properly fire rated or lack of training in certain situations I dont know.
It's as if like climate change they and it are beyond criticism.
Also not once have I thought that woman was correct.
I still dont believe the report about the police after Lawrence was killed.
That's a reason we are where we are now with racism and accusations every two minutes.

 

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 06 Nov 19 8.21pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

All emergency services do their best in situations most of the public would s*** themselves in.
You are given protocols to follow, but you can step outside them if you feel it is in the public/patients best interest.
To have anyone comment or judge them on that, unless they have been in that position is laughable.
Someones life is the biggest responsibility you can have in your hands.
I know. I did it over the course of 3 decades.
Race,colour,creed never came into it.
Just did your best for each patient you dealt with.

 

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 06 Nov 19 8.33pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

No they didnt clad the building or set it on fire.
The truth is they made mistakes on the night.
Whether through a building being not properly fire rated or lack of training in certain situations I dont know.
It's as if like climate change they and it are beyond criticism.
Also not once have I thought that woman was correct.
I still dont believe the report about the police after Lawrence was killed.
That's a reason we are where we are now with racism and accusations every two minutes.

Easy to say they made mistakes on the night.
They followed the set protocols and risked their lives to save people.
Cop out to pick apart those protocols from a set of circumstances not faced before (the cladding) and try and blame them.
999 services are not perfect, but how many people do their job whilst being threatened verbally or physically?
In my career i had a knife held at me, a shotgun pointed at me and lost count of the physical threats let alone the verbal.
All while trying to help someone.
Easy targets.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 06 Nov 19 8.38pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by sickboy

All emergency services do their best in situations most of the public would s*** themselves in.
You are given protocols to follow, but you can step outside them if you feel it is in the public/patients best interest.
To have anyone comment or judge them on that, unless they have been in that position is laughable.
Someones life is the biggest responsibility you can have in your hands.
I know. I did it over the course of 3 decades.
Race,colour,creed never came into it.
Just did your best for each patient you dealt with.

I've got nothing but respect and admiration for all of these people.
Doctors nurses fire police ambulance etc etc.
That though isnt being questioned in this case.
We are just about to see millions taken out of the police budget if this ER mob sue for damages over wrongful arrest.
Some will find this correct but personally it sucks.
Point is the police have been found to have made a mistake and been pulled up.
LFB rightly or wrongly being pulled up made mistakes on that night.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 06 Nov 19 8.43pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by sickboy

Easy to say they made mistakes on the night.
They followed the set protocols and risked their lives to save people.
Cop out to pick apart those protocols from a set of circumstances not faced before (the cladding) and try and blame them.
999 services are not perfect, but how many people do their job whilst being threatened verbally or physically?
In my career i had a knife held at me, a shotgun pointed at me and lost count of the physical threats let alone the verbal.
All while trying to help someone.
Easy targets.

Yep all spot on.

Look, uncomfortable truth is that when you are in a situation like that you need to use your common sense.

What Mogg said was accurate but obviously the disingenuous are suggesting that this is him criticising victims when it isn't.

It's recognising that when the sh1t hits the fan that it's you....the sh1t and the fan and you need to make the decisions....It's not fair, it's horrible but it's reality. Often people don't want to hear it.

Never forget that for many different reasons 'experts' are often wrong.


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Nov 2019 9.23pm)

 

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