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May 25 2020 3.59pm

Grenfell - who's to blame

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 06 Nov 19 9.01pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

I've got nothing but respect and admiration for all of these people.
Doctors nurses fire police ambulance etc etc.
That though isnt being questioned in this case.
We are just about to see millions taken out of the police budget if this ER mob sue for damages over wrongful arrest.
Some will find this correct but personally it sucks.
Point is the police have been found to have made a mistake and been pulled up.
LFB rightly or wrongly being pulled up made mistakes on that night.

What mistakes did the LFB make in regard to their set protocols?
I know for a fact that firefighters arriving at the scene knew that it was a hopeless job but still risked their lives to try and save others.
Saying otherwise is pc bollox.

 

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 06 Nov 19 9.20pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

BTW just to erase any doubt, it's not often you will hear an ambulance man, past or present, fighting the corner for "the water fairies" but despite inter service rivalry we are on the same side when we get s*** thrown by civvies who have no comprehension of the job.
Having mates in all branches of the armed forces i know that holds true there too.
Tho rarely admitted publicly.

 

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View ex hibitionist's Profile ex hibitionist Online Flag Hastings 06 Nov 19 9.28pm Send a Private Message to ex hibitionist Add ex hibitionist as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yep all spot on.

Look, uncomfortable truth is that when you are in a situation like that you need to use your common sense.

What Mogg said was accurate but obviously the disingenuous are suggesting that this is him criticising victims when it isn't.

It's recognising that when the sh1t hits the fan that it's you....the sh1t and the fan and you need to make the decisions....It's not fair, it's horrible but it's reality. Often people don't want to hear it.

Never forget that for many different reasons 'experts' are often wrong.


Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Nov 2019 9.23pm)

experts are often wrong, and so are opinionated people with no first hand access to the facts, for example I'd rather trust an ex-army judge spending years gathering evidence against one of the most powerful institutions in the country - with the use of lethal force at their disposal - to a HOL poster, I hope that doesn't make me a snob

 

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View sickboy's Profile sickboy Flag Deal or Croydon 06 Nov 19 9.36pm Send a Private Message to sickboy Add sickboy as a friend

Originally posted by ex hibitionist

experts are often wrong, and so are opinionated people with no first hand access to the facts, for example I'd rather trust an ex-army judge spending years gathering evidence against one of the most powerful institutions in the country - with the use of lethal force at their disposal - to a HOL poster, I hope that doesn't make me a snob

I tend to side with the people putting their lives on the line , day in, day out,just trying to save lives.
Undermining that in any way makes you a c***.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 06 Nov 19 9.41pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by ex hibitionist

experts are often wrong, and so are opinionated people with no first hand access to the facts, for example I'd rather trust an ex-army judge spending years gathering evidence against one of the most powerful institutions in the country - with the use of lethal force at their disposal - to a HOL poster, I hope that doesn't make me a snob

This whole tragedy is going to continue to be painful for a lot of people for a long time to come.

For me this is about the regulations and their abuse.

Response teams are beyond reproach.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Nov 2019 9.45pm)

 

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View ex hibitionist's Profile ex hibitionist Online Flag Hastings 06 Nov 19 10.51pm Send a Private Message to ex hibitionist Add ex hibitionist as a friend

Originally posted by sickboy

I tend to side with the people putting their lives on the line , day in, day out,just trying to save lives.
Undermining that in any way makes you a c***.

It's good that despite different views every body here is being respectful seeing as we're not involved etc, but I had a nice chat with an old chap at work, a tory and a Christian (though his views are very discreetly held) about the BBC doc on the fall out after the inquiry into the police after Stephen Lawrence's murder - while I was perturbed by some of the police behaviour he was more sympathetic to them on the basis that it's so easy to sling mud from the stands, try getting in the arena etc but what disturbs me about the Grenfell inquiry is the order of events - it's no accident that the fire service gets scrutinised first and the politicians later - there should be no 'sides' in this as some are suggesting ('depending which side you are on') - people have made money out of creating a hazard, it's not a matter of being wise after the event, this tragedy was inevitable in the literal not the literary sense, and those who tweaked the regulations so they could sell their product and those that took the back handers need to be exposed, prosecuted and things put in place to make a repeat infinitely less likely.

 

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View HKOwen's Profile HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 09 Nov 19 1.14am Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Why does there have to be blame, why not just a lesson learnt from a terrible tragedy and action taken to avoid a repeat.

 


Let's see SP and the board trying to line up for a piss in the AW toilets at half time before peddling the new stand. We're the Arthur over here and the facilities are a disgrace

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deleted user Flag 09 Nov 19 2.30am

Originally posted by HKOwen

Why does there have to be blame, why not just a lesson learnt from a terrible tragedy and action taken to avoid a repeat.

That would be the sane stance, but there ends up being so much emotion and hurt that it is unfortunately leveraged by this political party or that. Everything turns into a lurid campaign strategy and it makes me think that maybe proportional representation at least has something going for it. With that at least your view is your view then, regardless of location, strategy, turnout.

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 26 Feb 20 7.02pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Finally some sence.
Individuals wont be prosecuted if they give oral evidence.
Not companies or corporations.
This enables actual 'workers' to enlighten the board on what they thought at the time.
Hopefully the truth of why it was so bad will now be allowed to be heard.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 26 Feb 20 7.35pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

Finally some sence.
Individuals wont be prosecuted if they give oral evidence.
Not companies or corporations.
This enables actual 'workers' to enlighten the board on what they thought at the time.
Hopefully the truth of why it was so bad will now be allowed to be heard.

Let's hope it is the small fry otherwise we might just have given a free get out of jail card to the big fish.

I'm not sure this is the right tactic personally I would have preferred threatening anyone who refused to co-operate with serious jail time. That may require new legislation but the guilty should not be allowed to slip away.

 


One more point

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View martin2412's Profile martin2412 Flag The Big Wide World 26 Feb 20 9.52pm Send a Private Message to martin2412 Add martin2412 as a friend

I hadn't seen this thread before, however I have a vested interest in the quality of products being used in construction.

I prepare specifications for door fittings to large construction projects such as office blocks, hospitals, hotels and blocks of flats. Many of the doors that need my fittings are fire doors.

Here's a common sequence of events that happens on a regular basis:

1) Architect approaches me for a fully compliant door by door schedule of fittings.

2) I compile the schedule ensuring all hinges, door closers, locks, handles, panic hardware etc all comply with British and European standards, and are Certifire approved and tested. All intumescents are allowed for, which ensures that fire and smoke can't get through any gaps between the door and frame for a period of either 30 or 60 minutes usually.

3) The architect approves the schedule and the project goes out to tender.

4) A main contractor is appointed. They issue my schedule to a sub-contractor who then gets a quote from me to supply the fittings.

5) The sub-contractor phones me to say that in their opinion they think it's over-specified and that they hadn't allowed that much in their price to the main contractor. They then ask me to substitute the items that I have specified with cheaper alternatives. I refuse to do this based usually on safety issues, and also due to the fact that I have already done a lot of work to get where we are now.

6) The sub-contractor then approaches my competitors with my schedule/quote and asks them to give him a cost saving. Invariably they will do it, albeit with inferior products that sometimes don't fully conform to the required standards.

7) Competitor supplies sub-contractor, and alternative products are fitted.

8 ) Architect is informed that the schedule they have approved has not been adhered to. Nine times out of ten they don't give a toss.

Having said all this, it has improved slightly since Grenfell, but is still being done on a daily basis.

My guess (and it's only a guess) is this is what might have happened with the cladding.

Edited by martin2412 (26 Feb 2020 9.53pm)

 

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Online Flag Chatham 26 Feb 20 10.19pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Let's hope it is the small fry otherwise we might just have given a free get out of jail card to the big fish.

I'm not sure this is the right tactic personally I would have preferred threatening anyone who refused to co-operate with serious jail time. That may require new legislation but the guilty should not be allowed to slip away.


I think there will be guilt but not jail.
Honest mistakes were made.
I'm sure the scenario wasnt ever envisaged to happen.
Personal revenge isnt the correct way to go.
That's where it is now.

 

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