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October 27 2021 7.38am

Covid vaccine

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 15 May 21 3.36pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by eaglesdare

I refuse to get the Vaccine! I feel I ha e no need to get it.

But I would never discourage anyone to not get it! Or too get it! I don't protest it either other than lockdown restrictions.

Does that make me an anti-vaxxer?

I wouldn't say that it makes you an anti vaxxer. Just that there may be restrictions with travel and suchlike as result in certain countries, which is true of some other vaccines too.

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 15 May 21 3.59pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

I have not said or suggested that it is pointless getting vaccinated - I just do not understand why vaccinated people get so upset about non vaccinated people and your points have not answered that question.

If your concern is about adding pressure to the NHS (potentially) do you take the same view with overweight people, heavy smokers and drinkers as these groups are likely to need more hospital support?

On balance I believe it to be a selfish position and a net negative. I've explained why. If people don't want to get vaccinated though, then they clearly don't have to. It's actually you who has not bothered to actually think about much of what I have said.

My view of other heath issues is not out of line with this, in that of course it's 'preferable' healthwise for people not not be obese or smoke, but it's certainly their choice to do so. A half decent parallel, since your vaccination status can clearly impact transmission and hence potentially others health, would be saying that smoking indoors and around your family members is fine because they'll 'probably' be okay.

You seem to be working on the basis that one persons health cannot impact anothers when they have been vaccinated, when that is something that we know not to be true. The vaccine certainly appears to reduce the likelihood of serious illness and 'also transmission' though. A combination of factors that make it a good idea for all adults to 'consider' since 'we know' it's not a great situation when we have massive numbers of cases and hospitalisations simultaneously, especially where people can't be bothered to get vaccinated on account that they feel that they 'know best'.

Edited by BlueJay (15 May 2021 4.07pm)

 

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View Eden Eagle's Profile Eden Eagle Flag Kent 15 May 21 4.02pm Send a Private Message to Eden Eagle Add Eden Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

On balance I believe it to be a selfish position and a net negative. I've explained why. If people don't want to get vaccinated though, then they clearly don't have to. It's actually you who has not bothered to actually think about much of what I have said.

My view of other heath issues is not out of line with this, in that of course it's 'preferable' healthwise for people not not be obese or smoke, but it's certainly their choice to do so. A half decent parallel, since your vaccination status can clearly impact transmission and hence potentially others health, would be saying that smoking indoors and around your family members is fine because they'll 'probably' be okay.

You seem to be working on the basis that one persons health cannot impact anothers when they have been vaccinated, when that is something that we know not to be true. The vaccine certainly appears to reduce the likelihood of serious illness and 'also transmission' though. A combination of factors that make it a good idea for all adults to 'consider' since 'we know' it's not a great situation when we have massive numbers of cases and hospitalisations simultaneously, especially where people can't be bothered to get vaccinated on account that they feel that they 'know best'.


Edited by BlueJay (15 May 2021 4.01pm)

The Government and SAGE have been very clear that you can spread this virus even if you are vaccinated- are you saying this is not true then?

 

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View Henry of Peckham's Profile Henry of Peckham Flag Eton Mess 15 May 21 4.06pm Send a Private Message to Henry of Peckham Add Henry of Peckham as a friend

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

I have not said or suggested that it is pointless getting vaccinated - I just do not understand why vaccinated people get so upset about non vaccinated people and your points have not answered that question.

If your concern is about adding pressure to the NHS (potentially) do you take the same view with overweight people, heavy smokers and drinkers as these groups are likely to need more hospital support?

The answer may be that if most people have made the effort to get vaccinated the unvaccinated minority could put the majority at additional risk?

By all means refuse the vaccine but would it be unreasonable to ask you to paint yourselves orange so we can see you coming and avoid you?

 


Denial is not just a river in Egypt

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 15 May 21 4.07pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

The Government and SAGE have been very clear that you can spread this virus even if you are vaccinated- are you saying this is not true then?

Already answered:

"The data available so far as we well know, suggests that people are significantly less likely to spread covid once vaccinated. You appear to be taking a very literal interpretation of that and saying on account that it's not impossible to be spread post vaccination that it's pointless getting vaccinated. I don't believe that to be true and have explained why. "


Not everything is all or nothing. I've not ignored the fact that it's possible to pass it on after vaccination at all. In fact I have acknowledged that. You on the other hand have ignored the fact that they are also significantly 'less likely' to do so based on the same data. Which is my point.

Edited by BlueJay (15 May 2021 4.10pm)

 

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View Eden Eagle's Profile Eden Eagle Flag Kent 15 May 21 4.09pm Send a Private Message to Eden Eagle Add Eden Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Henry of Peckham

The answer may be that if most people have made the effort to get vaccinated the unvaccinated minority could put the majority at additional risk?

By all means refuse the vaccine but would it be unreasonable to ask you to paint yourselves orange so we can see you coming and avoid you?

For a start I have had the vaccine- but please explain how a non vaccinated person would put you at additional risk ? It does not make any sense...

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 15 May 21 4.16pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

For a start I have had the vaccine- but please explain how a non vaccinated person would put you at additional risk ? It does not make any sense...

Unvaccinated people are more likely to spread the virus, hence others are more likely to contract it, on both an individual basis and very high rates in any area.

You appear to have a very all or nothing was of perceiving things when it suits. The vaccine of course appears to make it 'less likely' that people will get seriously ill, but it's still preferable that we don't have massive outbreaks due to many not doing their bit and the consequences that come from that.


 

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View Eden Eagle's Profile Eden Eagle Flag Kent 15 May 21 4.29pm Send a Private Message to Eden Eagle Add Eden Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

Unvaccinated people are more likely to spread the virus, hence others are more likely to contract it, on both an individual basis and very high rates in any area.

You appear to have a very all or nothing was of perceiving things when it suits. The vaccine of course appears to make it 'less likely' that people will get seriously ill, but it's still preferable that we don't have massive outbreaks due to many not doing their bit and the consequences that come from that.


Ok we are going round in circles now - the data does “not appear” to make it less likely that a vaccinated person will get seriously ill - it is very clear that they will not get ill - the only people likely to be ill are the non vaccinated so why does this bother you so much as this is their choice?

 

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 15 May 21 4.40pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

Ok we are going round in circles now - the data does “not appear” to make it less likely that a vaccinated person will get seriously ill - it is very clear that they will not get ill - the only people likely to be ill are the non vaccinated so why does this bother you so much as this is their choice?

The data does not state that if you are vaccinated you simply 'will not get ill'. It does however make it much less likely that you'll get ill or be hospitalised (which primarily is what matters).

There are situations like the Indian varient and others though, where there are unknowns and so its clearly 'better' to do what you can to slow the spread. Which is why in some areas 'all' adults are being offered the vaccine. You appear to have simply stopped talking about the fact that transmission from unnvacinated people can be a factor that fuels a wider outbreak. I will take that as acknowledge of it as a factor.

Moreover, as stated before, people self declaring that they don't need or want to get vaccinated because they are not at risk gets away from the fact that half of those hospitalised were under 60. In a situation where we have another serious spike I'd rather us not have hospitals filled with people who thought they knew better. For the time it takes, and potential combined benefit of mass vaccination, I think it's a good idea. But as stated people don't have to as long as people realise there may be certain travel restrictions and so on.

The whole conversation spun off from a comment from someone saying that 99% of people shouldn't bother getting vaccinated. I thought that was a foolish thing to say so highlighted it as such.


Edited by BlueJay (15 May 2021 4.43pm)

 

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View Eden Eagle's Profile Eden Eagle Flag Kent 15 May 21 4.44pm Send a Private Message to Eden Eagle Add Eden Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by BlueJay

The data does not state that if you are vaccinated you simply 'will not get ill'. It does however make it much less likely that you'll get ill or be hospitalised (which primarily is what matters).

There are situations like the Indian varient and others though, where there are unknowns and so its clearly 'better' to do what you can to slow the spread. Which is why in some areas 'all' adults are being offered the vaccine. You appear to have simply stopped talking about the fact that transmission from unnvacinated people can be a factor that fuels a wider outbreak. I will take that as acknowledge of it as a factor.

Moreover, as stated before, people self declaring that they don't need or want to get vaccinated because they are not at risk gets away from the fact that half of those hospitalised were under 60. In a situation where we have another serious spike I'd rather us not have hospitals filled with people who thought they knew better. For the time it takes, and potential combined benefit of mass vaccination, I think it's a good idea. But as stated people don't have to as long as people realise there may be certain travel restrictions and so on.


Edited by BlueJay (15 May 2021 4.41pm)

Edited by BlueJay (15 May 2021 4.41pm)

Do you have the link to show that 50% of those hospitalised were under 60 please?

Re travel restrictions - can you travel freely abroad with no quarantine on return just because you have had the vaccination?

 

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View Henry of Peckham's Profile Henry of Peckham Flag Eton Mess 15 May 21 4.53pm Send a Private Message to Henry of Peckham Add Henry of Peckham as a friend

Supposedly, there's a growing body of evidence to suggest fully vaccinated people are less likely to have asymptomatic infection and potentially less likely to transmit Covid to others.

From a social standpoint there's no reason why the majority follow government and medical guidelines and the minority won't. I certainly wouldn't force anyone to have the vaccination against their will but it's entirely reasonable to say they can't expect full integration into society while so much is unknown.

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

I have not said or suggested that it is pointless getting vaccinated - I just do not understand why vaccinated people get so upset about non vaccinated people and your points have not answered that question.

If your concern is about adding pressure to the NHS (potentially) do you take the same view with overweight people, heavy smokers and drinkers as these groups are likely to need more hospital support?

The answer may be that if most people have made the effort to get vaccinated the unvaccinated minority could put the majority at additional risk?

By all means refuse the vaccine but would it be unreasonable to ask you to paint yourselves orange so we can see you coming and avoid you?

 


Denial is not just a river in Egypt

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 15 May 21 4.54pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

I'm going to watch the FA Cup.

Ultimately people can do as they wish. I would suggest that they get vaccinated for the benefit of their own health and others and that its clear why for reasons I've gone over multiple times.


 

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