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July 5 2022 12.41am

Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 23 Jun 22 10.05pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines

The buffer, that the EU and Russia should both want, is likely now to be eroded away (Moldova has also been given candidate status). Two large blocks will be staring at each other when this concludes. Not a good thing imo.

Russia's actions, in attempting to make their way to Kyiv, stopped only by their own substandard equipment and Western assistance, was the ultimate declaration that they had no interest in a buffer (as are their threats to others). On the contrary, if we've have done nothing there would now be no buffer. Currently there is still scope for one. Like it or not, it's in Europe, so effectively on our doorstep, and turning a blind eye is far from the solution some seem to have imagined it to be. It simply emboldens and creates the next staging ground. It's down to Russia not only us to move towards peace. Continuing to push on is not the best message to send the world.


Edited by BlueJay (23 Jun 2022 10.16pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 Jun 22 10.23pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

In my view the manner of the initial Russian invasion was obviously intended to topple the Ukrainian regime rather than destroy the country. SW19 gave what sounded like a realistic analysis at the time that Putin had been convinced by corrupt agents that the Ukrainian military wouldn't fight.

The idea that Putin expected the west to decide to create a cold war over the Ukraine doesn't make sense as it was never a war the west was likely to win without huge economic and military risks to itself.

I think Putin gave the west too much credit in being rational and boy are we finding that out now.


Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jun 2022 10.25pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 Jun 22 10.28pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Russia have been making rapid progress over the last few days, which is probably why our media has largely gone a bit quiet.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 23 Jun 22 10.51pm Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Ukraine war in maps: Tracking the Russian invasion - [Link]

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 23 Jun 22 11.04pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

I think when people use sources like Fobes (which is basically Wall Street) and the BBC....both of which described the surrender at the Azov plant in Mariupol as 'evacuations' you have to wonder as to how much real interest there is in objective reporting.

If alternative sources are going to be criticised (and reporters/commentators should always be judged upon how much they care about accuracy), then there should be some concrete basis upon which to criticise a specific source, rather than tired tropes.

When he posts I will link to DPA's summary of the current battlefield situation and it will comes without silly little emotive commentaries and attempts to reduce or heighten based upon having a side.....but rather the objective status.


Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jun 2022 11.10pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 24 Jun 22 12.14am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think when people use sources like Fobes (which is basically Wall Street) and the BBC....both of which described the surrender at the Azov plant in Mariupol as 'evacuations' you have to wonder as to how much real interest there is reality reporting.

Using the relevant source terms here are the first articles that came up. Here is the BBC describing Russia's description of a 'mass surrender' in Mariupol [Link]

Here they describe potential evacuation 'of civilians' (which of course took place) and Putin's demand that fighters must 'surrender' [Link] Here too [Link] Here's Forbes detailing the 'surrender' of Mariupol [Link] and again the article describes the 'evacuation' of civilians. While over the course of describing events across weeks and months there have been occasional descriptions of fighters being 'evacuated' (across most media actually, left and right), clearly how they very frequently detailed events has been completely excluded from your above narrative, which is therefore more emotionally geared and less reality based than the targets of your criticism. I'm not sure how this is some kind of jewel in the crown of why these sources aren't reporting reality.

Quote
When he posts I will link to DPA's summary of the current battlefield situation and it will comes without silly little emotive commentaries and attempts to reduce or heighten based upon having a side.....but rather the objective status.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Jun 2022 11.05pm)

The BBC stats provided are not particularly dissimilar to DPAs take, which is unsurprising since it's detailed third party data used to analyse battlefields for military operations. The tracking of the invasion BBC link posted does not in the least bit pick a side, or offer emotive commentary, it's mostly matter of facts and is not shy of highlighting various Russian successes.

Quote If alternative sources are going to be criticised (and reporters/commentators should always be judged upon how much they care about accuracy), then there should be some concrete basis upon which to criticise a specific source, rather than tired tropes.

It depends what you call an 'alternative source'. I've not ever criticised DPA's analyse of the war because it seems impartial, nor would I. I have gone exceptionally 'light' on criticism or analysis of the more out there sources and social media linked to at times, because it's so emotive compared to any normal source, that any meaningful analysis of it is difficult. It would instead become about the type of person that is making said social media posts or videos which would be a relevant and important yet I expect unwelcome conversation... so it's not worth the time or effort.


Edited by BlueJay (24 Jun 2022 1.12am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 24 Jun 22 1.15am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

None of those links worked for me.....I suspect that may be a problem at my end.

If I remember correctly the surrender of the main forces at Azov didn't take weeks and months.

It's a reality that those sites described the events at Mariupol as evacuations over several articles and that they did refer to fighters being 'evacuated'....which was always rubbish. There has never been an issue with describing civilians like that.

Mainstream sites essentially echo whatever the Ukrainians tell them....and add a disclaimer of 'according to'....however they themselves decide on what is reported, how and what isn't reported and my criticism is that it hasn't accurately reflected what's been occurring on the battlefield.

If I'm being accused of being emotive and not reporting reality then be specific....what have I said has happened that hasn't?

I certainly recall you being dismissive and critical of alternative media, however probably not in respect to this war so it's fair enough to discard that observation.

However, you yourself have been very emotionally invested in this war and...well, no actually I won't criticise that because the individual has that right. However, what I do criticise are established outlets that don't produce an objective view of the battlefield...for example, reporting on Russian shelling of civilians but not on Ukrainian shelling of the same....It's quite open when you look for it.

There was a particular piece on an old woman that has been used for Russian propaganda that....anyone who knows what happened there can read the subtext and see it's terribly biased journalism....something they would never have reported upon unless she said the words they wanted....no doubt in fear of her life now. People have been killed on both sides for speaking out on support for either side.

You won't find those biases within the sources I use...because I'm not interested in slanted human interest stories but rather the truth of what's happening in the field. So I try to use sources that reflect that....if there is too much bias I end up discarding them.

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Jun 2022 1.55am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View BlueJay's Profile BlueJay Flag UK 24 Jun 22 1.40am Send a Private Message to BlueJay Add BlueJay as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

None of those links worked for me.....I suspect that may be a problem at my end.

If I remember correctly the surrender of the main forces at Azov didn't take weeks and months.

It's a reality that those sites described the events at Mariupol as evacuations over several articles and that they did refer to fighters being 'evacuated'....which was always rubbish. There has never been an issue with describing civilians like that.

Mainstream sites essentially echo whatever the Ukrainians tell them....and add a disclaimer of 'according to'....however they themselves decide on what is reported, how and what isn't reported and my criticism is that it hasn't accuracy reflected what's been occurring on the battlefield.

I've answered the evacuation point. I clarified the nuance that was missing from an intended slant, so there's no point going over it again. Even Foxnews and some of your sources no doubt used the term 'evacuated' on occasion with regard to fighters, since it is not inacurate in the context used. As stated, vastly more often than not there are talk of fighters 'surrendering' and civilians being evacuated. It's no 'gotcha'. Even highlighting this above the madness and grotesque output from Russian media, is telling of a very skewed standpoint

The battlefield analysis link I posted, is a fair represenatation. While it's natural to wish to support a besieged people, I'd say that the BBC has by no means neglected to mention Russian gains during this invasion. I see denial of that fact as part of the 'it's all lies' pushed propoganda that aligns well with ideas that our media is as bad as Russias, that 'we' are provoking and Russia's conduct goes largely unquestioned as something that just 'is' and so on.


Edited by BlueJay (24 Jun 2022 1.43am)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 24 Jun 22 3.19am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

We will agree to disagree.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Vincehair's Profile Vincehair Flag London 24 Jun 22 10.59am Send a Private Message to Vincehair Add Vincehair as a friend

See it like a football match, attack and defence can change quite quickly when you bring on your big guns and momentum can swing. Counter attack is quite a potent strategy going by Hungarys demolition of England at Wolves and believe this is what will happen soon in the Donbas

Ukr are not interested in cedeing territory atm and if they decide to it will be on their terms and can only be from a position of strength. Zelensky rightly dismissed previous negotiations as Russ playing the media

Re media outlets. Fox is a bit of joke. BBC may have a bit of war fatigue - and canít really compete with info readily available on twitter

Think EU candidate status is symbolically a big thing and Germans, Italians and French seem to be now properly onboard in regards to playing with a straight bat

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View W12's Profile W12 24 Jun 22 11.41am Send a Private Message to W12 Add W12 as a friend

Originally posted by Vincehair

See it like a football match, attack and defence can change quite quickly when you bring on your big guns and momentum can swing. Counter attack is quite a potent strategy going by Hungarys demolition of England at Wolves and believe this is what will happen soon in the Donbas

Ukr are not interested in cedeing territory atm and if they decide to it will be on their terms and can only be from a position of strength. Zelensky rightly dismissed previous negotiations as Russ playing the media

Re media outlets. Fox is a bit of joke. BBC may have a bit of war fatigue - and canít really compete with info readily available on twitter

Think EU candidate status is symbolically a big thing and Germans, Italians and French seem to be now properly onboard in regards to playing with a straight bat

Ukraine/Zelenski is asking for more artillery pieces than exist in the entire US military and many more tanks than the UK and Germans have combined. That's fantasy land. The Ukrainians have zero chance of winning this war with Russia and the risk remains of escalation with other nations. All loss of life could have been avoided before this even started and I fear now the Russians have no motivation to stop moving east now that they have invested so many lives. The low end estimate of Ukrainian lives lost now is some 45,000 by the way.

By the way, this is already an unprecedented windfall for the military industrial complex who are already lining up to "modernise" (replace the old crap all the western nations have given Ukraine).

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 24 Jun 22 11.49am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

US to provide another $450 million in military aid for Ukraine, including medium-range rocket systems.

Throwing more money away on a losing war, while its own population suffers.

Low quality elites.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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