Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Mapletree  Croydon 18 Sep 22 6.33pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
As I said earlier in the thread the real victims of this war are the civilians killed and maimed for the hubris of politicians. I will respect any man who goes to war for their country while not always agreeing with the reasons why....some of those reasons have been lies fed to them....and in the Ukraine conscription has meant that many people have been forced to fight against their will. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 5.13pm) In a survey by Rating on 1 March 2022, 80% of the Ukrainian respondents said they were ready to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine with weapons in hand. Compared to the pre-war times, this figure has significantly increased (it was 59% in 2020). The highest level of readiness is observed in the West and in the Centre of the country, while a slightly lower level of readiness is observed in the South and in the East. But even in the South-Eastern regions, readiness to fight for the country is extremely high (almost 80% in the South and almost 60% in the East).
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| Stirlingsays 18 Sep 22 6.38pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
In a survey by Rating on 1 March 2022, 80% of the Ukrainian respondents said they were ready to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine with weapons in hand. Compared to the pre-war times, this figure has significantly increased (it was 59% in 2020). The highest level of readiness is observed in the West and in the Centre of the country, while a slightly lower level of readiness is observed in the South and in the East. But even in the South-Eastern regions, readiness to fight for the country is extremely high (almost 80% in the South and almost 60% in the East). What you miss out here is the reality that all opposition media has been outlawed in Ukraine, the same with parties. No one is allowed to say anything other than what is approved. I don't believe those figures, especially in the east and south as that's where the separatist movement actually is. They haven't taken ground with squirrels, those people come from those regions. Also, 'respondents' hardly represents the actual population demographic does it. If those figures were real there would be no need for conscription would there Maple? Yet no male of fighting age has been allowed to leave the country since the war began. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 6.40pm)
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| Stirlingsays 18 Sep 22 6.43pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
As Sting once sang: “I hope the Russians love their children too…” You obviously didn't read what Medvedev said about this. When it comes to tens of millions dying in a war, the Russians have a history. You are willing for tens of millions to die over Ukraine? Which slav controls what piece of land. I'll fight in a war that make sense. I fight battles that have a clearly defined win as a result.....I would have thought that after the last twenty years more of us would have learnt this.....Anyway, you can fight for the State department's gay disco. Regardless I resent the suffering we will have to endure for this fiasco. But like I said, I never supported this....it's you lot who will have to answer for people not being able to pay their bills, going cold and not being able to feed their kids. And that's just the consequences over the next few months. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 6.54pm)
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| Mapletree Croydon 18 Sep 22 7.36pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
What you miss out here is the reality that all opposition media has been outlawed in Ukraine, the same with parties. No one is allowed to say anything other than what is approved. I don't believe those figures, especially in the east and south as that's where the separatist movement actually is. They haven't taken ground with squirrels, those people come from those regions. Also, 'respondents' hardly represents the actual population demographic does it. If those figures were real there would be no need for conscription would there Maple? Yet no male of fighting age has been allowed to leave the country since the war began. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 6.40pm) I suggest you take your arguments to the LSE. I am merely reporting. But I see you know better so thrash it out with them. Ukraine is a country that already had subscription, a Soviet legacy. They have e.g. removed the right to defer (which links to banning people leaving) but this isn't the huge change it would be in the UK. Perhaps you also think we should not have had conscription during WW1 (1916) and WW2 (1939)? Or maybe you believe people were not feeling passionate about beating the Germans. Your argument is totally fallacious. It is a question of all hands to the pump and everyone in it together. What do you think the approval ratings will be now in Ukraine, six months on? Or indeed in Russia where people were more nationalistic than in Ukraine before the invasion. Russia has done a brilliant job of nation building in Ukraine Also, referring back to another of your fallacious statements a couple of months back, you will note in the article that the Russophones are not significantly less supportive of fighting for the Ukrainian homeland than the Ukrainian speakers. Remember how you so cleverly belittled me on that point? Edited by Mapletree (18 Sep 2022 7.37pm)
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| Badger11 Beckenham 18 Sep 22 7.47pm |
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Russian singer attacks Putin / Russian government. She's a brave lady I hope she doesn't go anyway near any open windows.
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ASCPFC  Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 18 Sep 22 7.51pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Russian singer attacks Putin / Russian government. She's a brave lady I hope she doesn't go anyway near any open windows. I'm a big fan of Pussy Riot's protest style.
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| Stirlingsays 18 Sep 22 7.57pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
I suggest you take your arguments to the LSE. I am merely reporting. But I see you know better so thrash it out with them. Why should I? It's yourself who brought them into it to push a position that's unlikely in my view. I suspect most in Ukraine would support peace personally but I'm not going to make a claim based upon 'respondents'.....really Maple. Originally posted by Mapletree
Ukraine is a country that already had subscription, a Soviet legacy. They have e.g. removed the right to defer (which links to banning people leaving) but this isn't the huge change it would be in the UK. The point stands, you suggested that there was a positive majority who want to fight and die in this war. I point to the actual reality that the Ukraine haven't given its men a choice not too. People have died being forced to fight.....I'm generally against that regardless of who does it. Originally posted by Mapletree
Perhaps you also think we should not have had conscription during WW1 (1916) and WW2 (1939)? Or maybe you believe people were not feeling passionate about beating the Germans. Your argument is totally fallacious. It is a question of all hands to the pump and everyone in it together. No I don't. Both those wars led to the destruction of the British empire and the influx of fifth columnists. We should have stayed out of both wars.....This country is now awash with a middle class with mixed loyalties....Maple. Originally posted by Mapletree
What do you think the approval ratings will be now in Ukraine, six months on? Or indeed in Russia where people were more nationalistic than in Ukraine before the invasion. Russia has done a brilliant job of nation building in Ukraine Why should I care what the rating is? My only care would be for the rating to be an honest reflection of the reality. Originally posted by Mapletree
Also, referring back to another of your fallacious statements a couple of months back, you will note in the article that the Russophones are not significantly less supportive of fighting for the Ukrainian homeland than the Ukrainian speakers. Remember how you so cleverly belittled me on that point? Edited by Mapletree (18 Sep 2022 7.37pm) I don't remember no, but I'll take your word on it. I make no claim that the Russian media or 'polls' are any less honest than Ukrainian ones...Also, it's a fact that opposition to the approved state position is also restricted in Russia (though opposition parties aren't banned and opposition media exists). I have no issue with people criticising Russia, however what grates is this requirement to whitewash the Ukrainian regime. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 8.00pm)
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| Stirlingsays 18 Sep 22 8.04pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
Russian singer attacks Putin / Russian government. She's a brave lady I hope she doesn't go anyway near any open windows. Sure, though let's not forget that a matter of weeks ago Dugin's daughter was murdered in a car bomb. I noticed that there was little opposition to it. Ukraine have also threatened murder to any officials who work with Russia and several have met that fate....Again, it's barely reported and I doubt anyone would have any issues with it. Russia are also claiming that their people have been murdered in reprisals since the withdrawn...again, nothing is reported in the west and while I suspect it's true there is no way of knowing. Personally I condemn the lot of it but what the Slavs want to get up to is for them. I don't want to be a party to it. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 8.07pm)
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| Eaglehamster Storrington 18 Sep 22 8.13pm |
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Russia is bad and so is Nato.....a plague on all their houses as far as I'm concerned. I find that a little hard to digest. Didn't the former Soviet satellite states join NATO voluntarily? Why did they do that? It appears that Putin longs to rebuild the Soviet empire by bullying, scaring and possibly conquering them to do so and it doesn't seem to work. I think most people, apart from you, see NATO as primarily a defensive entity.
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| Stirlingsays 18 Sep 22 8.22pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglehamster
Russia is bad and so is Nato.....a plague on all their houses as far as I'm concerned. I find that a little hard to digest. Didn't the former Soviet satellite states join NATO voluntarily? Why did they do that? It appears that Putin longs to rebuild the Soviet empire by bullying, scaring and possibly conquering them to do so and it doesn't seem to work. I think most people, apart from you, see NATO as primarily a defensive entity. I know this is what you've been told. However look at the realities. Russia's military totals a little over one million. Tell me, if Putin was seriously wanting to go to war to reclaim the old Soviet Empire, why don't the Russian military number in the many millions.....because that is what would be needed. This stuff is serious and these claims need to be looked at seriously to divide between truth and propaganda. Smoke and mirrors. As for former soviet states wanting to join Nato....sure I can understand that. However, what matters is what is best for us....Nato isn't the UN and wasn't set up to be. The nineties were a missed opportunity to bring Russia into Nato but the politicians saw the organisation's role as essentially against Russia instead of one that ensures peace.....hence today. I believe that Nato's mission has been abused....just as our forces were abused to fight in middle eastern wars for decades for absolutely no result. Number of politicians and officials who had to answer for that? None. Similar to the number who will have to answer for the prolonged suffering that this war causes as well. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Sep 2022 8.23pm)
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| Eaglehamster Storrington 18 Sep 22 8.39pm |
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The nineties were a missed opportunity to bring Russia into Nato but the politicians saw the organisation's role as essentially against Russia instead of one that ensures peace.....hence today. Absolutely.
None. Similar to the number who will have to answer for the prolonged suffering that this war causes as well. When are politicians ever brought to account for any war?
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| Stirlingsays 18 Sep 22 8.46pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglehamster
The nineties were a missed opportunity to bring Russia into Nato but the politicians saw the organisation's role as essentially against Russia instead of one that ensures peace.....hence today. Absolutely.
None. Similar to the number who will have to answer for the prolonged suffering that this war causes as well. When are politicians ever brought to account for any war? You are right Iraqi was US driven yes, but we still wasted our lives and resources fighting that pointless war. The only politician who hasn't bent the knee to what the Americans wanted was Wilson in staying out of the Vietnam war......otherwise we have been the compliant client state....apparently it gives us a 'special relationship' where Biden slags us off over Ireland.
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