Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 Stirlingsays  09 Feb 23 7.27pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
I simply do not envisage a scenario whereby the West keeps supplying arms for years and eventually Russia is defeated on the battlefield and the Donbas is returned to Ukrainian control. This conflict will not end with a military victory but a negotiated settlement.Perhaps the West will encourage Zelenskyy to negotiate, taking the stance that enough is enough in terms of military support,they really have to look after their own security interests and not see their military hardware diminish as a result of transferring equipment to Ukraine. Edited by Willo (09 Feb 2023 6.43pm) I hope you're right Willo, I hope you're right. They should have negotiated this back in March but pulled the rug and now they have committed themselves to a Ukrainian victory when the odds were always against that.....Unless Nato goes all in. Which is incredibly risky....foolhardy in my view. Playing chicken with nuclear states because of morality isn't only inconsistent with the deals these guys make every year but it's about as irresponsible as it gets. If things go wrong we are all dead, here and in Russia. Personally unless the state has provided me with a fully set up bunker (they decided against public bunkers back in the seventies)....just what the feck do they think they are doing? Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 7.29pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 09 Feb 23 8.06pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I hope you're right Willo, I hope you're right. They should have negotiated this back in March but pulled the rug and now they have committed themselves to a Ukrainian victory when the odds were always against that.....Unless Nato goes all in. Which is incredibly risky....foolhardy in my view. Playing chicken with nuclear states because of morality isn't only inconsistent with the deals these guys make every year but it's about as irresponsible as it gets. If things go wrong we are all dead, here and in Russia. Personally unless the state has provided me with a fully set up bunker (they decided against public bunkers back in the seventies)....just what the feck do they think they are doing? o me that we are between a rock and a hard plaoce. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 7.29pm) It seems to me that we are between a rock and a hard place. I'm not sure Putin would see negotiation as anything more than a way to gain advantage, and appeasement just encourages megalomaniacs. I would hope that bogging Putin down in Ukraine would allow the west time to increase its conventional capabilities, but I see no evidence of that. The bottom line is that Putin clearly needs no provocation to do whatever he likes. The only way to deter him is with force.
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 becky over the moon 09 Feb 23 8.16pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It seems to me that we are between a rock and a hard place. I'm not sure Putin would see negotiation as anything more than a way to gain advantage, and appeasement just encourages megalomaniacs. I would hope that bogging Putin down in Ukraine would allow the west time to increase its conventional capabilities, but I see no evidence of that. The bottom line is that Putin clearly needs no provocation to do whatever he likes. The only way to deter him is with force. Or a bullet in the head from one of his own....
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| Stirlingsays 09 Feb 23 8.20pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It seems to me that we are between a rock and a hard place. I'm not sure Putin would see negotiation as anything more than a way to gain advantage, and appeasement just encourages megalomaniacs. I would hope that bogging Putin down in Ukraine would allow the west time to increase its conventional capabilities, but I see no evidence of that. The bottom line is that Putin clearly needs no provocation to do whatever he likes. The only way to deter him is with force. I don't go with all that.....I know that's what gets sold to us but I've lived through these times. Putin has been in power in Russia since the nineties. It was cozy with him for a while. It was all perfectly fine until the neo cons started their usual interference. I have Farage right about it and he has been saying this stuff for over ten years. I went through all these arguments earlier in the thread. If Russia had been about taking back eastern Europe then it would have had an army built up to do it. That wasn't the case at all. Now however, because this war has only gone one way Russia are doing exactly that. We need people with common sense to step back and negotiate otherwise we are all going to eventually pay the piper....including Russia. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 8.21pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 09 Feb 23 9.06pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I don't go with all that.....I know that's what gets sold to us but I've lived through these times. Putin has been in power in Russia since the nineties. It was cozy with him for a while. It was all perfectly fine until the neo cons started their usual interference. I have Farage right about it and he has been saying this stuff for over ten years. I went through all these arguments earlier in the thread. If Russia had been about taking back eastern Europe then it would have had an army built up to do it. That wasn't the case at all. Now however, because this war has only gone one way Russia are doing exactly that. We need people with common sense to step back and negotiate otherwise we are all going to eventually pay the piper....including Russia. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 8.21pm) Negotiate about what exactly? How much of Ukraine Putin can have? Your view point assumes that Putin has no desire to encroach into any other neighbouring countries. How can we be sure? Who really knows? As we stand now, I can't see how we can just let him take Ukraine and do nothing. That would go against the lessons of history. Whatever provocation Putin claims for the invasion, a military assault on a free country in mainland Europe resulting in many deaths and devastation was a step too far.
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| Stirlingsays 09 Feb 23 9.35pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Negotiate about what exactly? How much of Ukraine Putin can have? Your view point assumes that Putin has no desire to encroach into any other neighbouring countries. How can we be sure? Who really knows? As we stand now, I can't see how we can just let him take Ukraine and do nothing. That would go against the lessons of history. Whatever provocation Putin claims for the invasion, a military assault on a free country in mainland Europe resulting in many deaths and devastation was a step too far. How can I be sure? If Putin had been serious about taking these areas back then why wasn't his army in a state ready to do it back last February? Second point....why am I meant to care exactly? What has Ukraine got to do with me? I'm not a globalist Hrolf and Ukraine isn't a Nato country. I don't cheer for Biden's or social liberalism's gay disco expansionism, what beef am I meant to have with Putin exactly? I think US interference in the Ukraine with that coup back in 2014 led to the civil war and after the Minsk agreements were broken this invasion. Why is my standard of living meant to suffer and risk of dying in a nuclear attack meant to go through the roof because of these things? Like I say, I'm with Farage and Orban in this area.....none of our business. I don't think Ukraine wouldn't have given a fart if anything had happened to us.....This is a proxy war between the US state department and Putin.....I agree that Putin is looking out for Russia's interests and the US want him gone. I would have kept out of it.....I learnt my neo con lessons. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 9.38pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 09 Feb 23 9.43pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
How can I be sure? If Putin had been serious about taking these areas back then why wasn't his army in a state ready to do it back last February? Second point....why am I meant to care exactly? What has Ukraine got to do with me? I'm not a globalist Hrolf and Ukraine isn't a Nato country. I don't cheer for Biden's or social liberalism's gay disco expansionism, what beef am I meant to have with Putin exactly? I think US interference in the Ukraine with that coup back in 2014 led to the civil war and after the Minsk agreements were broken this invasion. Why is my standard of living and risk of dying in a nuclear attack meant to go through the roof because of these things? Like I say, I'm with Farage and Orban in this area.....none of our business. I don't think Ukraine wouldn't have given a fart if anything had happened to us.....This is a proxy war between the US state department and Putin.....I agree that Putin is looking out for Russia's interests and the US want him gone. I would have kept out of it.....I learnt my neo con lessons. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 9.37pm) Was Poland our business before World War2? This is not about loving Ukrainians or hating Putin. It's not even about loving the good old USA. Obviously, no one wants WW3, but sitting on our hands might just increase the risk, not reduce it.
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| stancummins 09 Feb 23 9.48pm |
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ive watched this blog over the last year with interest without getting involved, but i agree with a lot that Stirling says. Putin was wrong to invade in the first place no doubt about that ,but the major miscalculation he made was the fact that the West would stick together in supporting Ukraine.He gambled that the West would turn a blind eye like they did in 2014 with Crimea.The problem now is that the West cannot financially keep paying for the military shopping list that Ukraine keep coming up with, at some stage they are going to have to go back to the negotiating table no matter how unpalatable that will be for all sides. The fear some people have that this will embolden Putin are misplaced based on what has happened in Ukraine ,he will feel once bitten . Ultimately it suits certain western governments to keep this conflict going as a diversionary tactic like yesterday where PMs question time was cancelled , How can we say no to NHS workers pay rises while sending billions of pounds worth of military equipment to Ukraine
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| Stirlingsays 09 Feb 23 10.05pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Was Poland our business before World War2? This is not about loving Ukrainians or hating Putin. It's not even about loving the good old USA. Obviously, no one wants WW3, but sitting on our hands might just increase the risk, not reduce it. We might agree on lots of stuff but I can't say we agree here Hrolf. WW2 was a disaster for Britain and another war that never needed to expand into a world wide conflict. We should have just let Hitler fight it out with Stalin. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Feb 2023 10.06pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Behind Enemy Lines Sussex 09 Feb 23 10.07pm |
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Originally posted by stancummins
ive watched this blog over the last year with interest without getting involved, but i agree with a lot that Stirling says. Putin was wrong to invade in the first place no doubt about that ,but the major miscalculation he made was the fact that the West would stick together in supporting Ukraine.He gambled that the West would turn a blind eye like they did in 2014 with Crimea.The problem now is that the West cannot financially keep paying for the military shopping list that Ukraine keep coming up with, at some stage they are going to have to go back to the negotiating table no matter how unpalatable that will be for all sides. The fear some people have that this will embolden Putin are misplaced based on what has happened in Ukraine ,he will feel once bitten . Ultimately it suits certain western governments to keep this conflict going as a diversionary tactic like yesterday where PMs question time was cancelled , How can we say no to NHS workers pay rises while sending billions of pounds worth of military equipment to Ukraine Yes, we should look after our own before wasting billions on Ukraine, but we are where we are. What we need to do is consider why Putin invaded parts of Ukraine post Crimea in 2014. Was it something to do with the rumoured bio labs in Ukraine/ Bidens son many trips there, the EU banging on the door encouraging Ukraine to apply for EU membership? Ukraine was a mutual buffer between Russia and the EU ; it isn’t anymore.
hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing. |
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| Stirlingsays 09 Feb 23 10.10pm |
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Originally posted by stancummins
ive watched this blog over the last year with interest without getting involved, but i agree with a lot that Stirling says. Putin was wrong to invade in the first place no doubt about that ,but the major miscalculation he made was the fact that the West would stick together in supporting Ukraine.He gambled that the West would turn a blind eye like they did in 2014 with Crimea.The problem now is that the West cannot financially keep paying for the military shopping list that Ukraine keep coming up with, at some stage they are going to have to go back to the negotiating table no matter how unpalatable that will be for all sides. The fear some people have that this will embolden Putin are misplaced based on what has happened in Ukraine ,he will feel once bitten . Ultimately it suits certain western governments to keep this conflict going as a diversionary tactic like yesterday where PMs question time was cancelled , How can we say no to NHS workers pay rises while sending billions of pounds worth of military equipment to Ukraine Pretty much. The story being sold to us by the mainstream completely ignores the different options we have. Once again, it's group think on steroids and escalation after escalation. Unless we are going to fight Russia properly....which is nuts....then some kind of negotiation is inevitable. People have been sold a pup all through this thing.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 09 Feb 23 10.15pm |
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Originally posted by Behind Enemy Lines
Yes, we should look after our own before wasting billions on Ukraine, but we are where we are. What we need to do is consider why Putin invaded parts of Ukraine post Crimea in 2014. Was it something to do with the rumoured bio labs in Ukraine/ Bidens son many trips there, the EU banging on the door encouraging Ukraine to apply for EU membership? Ukraine was a mutual buffer between Russia and the EU ; it isn’t anymore. That seems to be the idea of the last thirty years. Continually spend billions and in the US's case trillions none of us have and just ignore the ever increasing repayments.....that's the next administration/generation's problem.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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