2024 General Election
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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 11 Jan 24 9.46pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Yada yada. We are at the beginning of a long journey but at least we are on it. We are told we should not have pride by the likes of you. We must regain that pride. Flag waving has nothing to do with it. If you weren't so blinkered, you would know that. I would suggest they have protected us from being in an even worse place and that our future recovery from the heavy hits of the pandemic and the Ukraine war would have been much easier without Brexit adding to it. But there it is. We did it so we have to deal with it, while you blame everyone else but yourselves. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (11 Jan 2024 9.46pm)
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| Stirlingsays 12 Jan 24 6.24am |
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He has zero evidence for the argument that other routes would have produced worse outcomes. All he has is a terrible outcome. All he does is defend generational level failure. It's no more than establishment fluffing.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Jan 24 8.36am |
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Zero evidence for the argument that other routes would have produced worse outcomes? There isn’t ever any evidence for things that haven’t happened! Remember that when discussing lockdowns! There is evidence though for what has happened and simple logic implies that removing one negative from a bunch of negatives will result in less damage.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| silvertop Portishead 12 Jan 24 9.46am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
A fairly revisionary version of events which has apparently become fact after the matter - a great many of the Leave campaigns adverts, videos and slogans were around economics, and many leave voters were outraged at the idea they were voting leave for any anti-immigrant sentiment. I voted remain but that's delusional. Leavers voted for a plethora of reasons, but I genuinely believe what won the day was immigration and especially the 2015 refugee crisis which put it front of mind. And if your answer to this is they were non EU immigrants, most of whom were heading for Germany and Scandinavia, and thus voting leave or remain would make little difference... well, yes.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Jan 24 9.58am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I'm not sure anything I said remotely suggests that, but ok. Lord Ashcroft's election day poll of 12,369 voters also discovered that 'One third of leave voters said the main reason was that leaving "offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders." The main reason stated was sovereignty in Lord Ashcroft's poll. Pollsters from 'UK in a Changing Europe', which conducts independent and authoritative UK-EU relations, conducted a poll in July 2018 which surveyed over 7,000 participants showing the differences between Conservative and Labour's Remain and Leave forces within the party. Leave voters, for the most part, regarded control of British laws and regulations as the most important factor in the next 5 years, with the ability to strike trade deals independently as the second most important factor. Leave voters would prioritise control and trade over immigration by 67% to 33%, and 59% to 41% respectively. You say that you don't believe that campaigns are honest truth and then you immediately tell me about a post vote poll where you seem to be suggesting that responders are honest about their motivations.....which are probably multifactorial anyway. If someone gives you a couple of options of why you voted a particular way and one of them is less controversial than the other well then human nature takes over. The Tories are clearly aware of just how important immigration is and are fully aware of why it's collapsing their vote among their traditional base. They are no different to Labour insomuch as they play the game of trying to attract centralists to vote for them while they take their base for granted......plus the leadership of the conservatives have been centralist and/or left wing (in party terms) since Howard. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Jan 2024 9.59am)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 12 Jan 24 10.06am |
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Originally posted by silvertop
I voted remain but that's delusional. Leavers voted for a plethora of reasons, but I genuinely believe what won the day was immigration and especially the 2015 refugee crisis which put it front of mind. And if your answer to this is they were non EU immigrants, most of whom were heading for Germany and Scandinavia, and thus voting leave or remain would make little difference... well, yes. Go and watch the Vote Leave campaign videos - they're all still on Youtube. £350m a week. Easiest trade deal in history. Cost of your grocery shopping will go down. I don't disagree that immigration was the biggest factor for most people, but this idea that the 'economic turbulence' was advertised and accepted is not how I remember it at all.
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| silvertop Portishead 12 Jan 24 12.56pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
Go and watch the Vote Leave campaign videos - they're all still on Youtube. £350m a week. Easiest trade deal in history. Cost of your grocery shopping will go down. I don't disagree that immigration was the biggest factor for most people, but this idea that the 'economic turbulence' was advertised and accepted is not how I remember it at all. Side issues. Leave did not credit the floating element of the electorate with that much intelligence (and time has proved them right). Leave was sold based only on 3 words. Anything more would confuse them. And, as another has said, this was equated in those simple little minds with immigration and border control. BTW, the poll on election day may have said X, but polls since have given Y and then Z as reasons people claim to have voted Leave. I cannot recall any election where people have worked so hard to retrospectively justify their vote with wholly revisionist reasons.
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 12 Jan 24 1.06pm |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Side issues. Leave did not credit the floating element of the electorate with that much intelligence (and time has proved them right). Leave was sold based only on 3 words. Anything more would confuse them. And, as another has said, this was equated in those simple little minds with immigration and border control. BTW, the poll on election day may have said X, but polls since have given Y and then Z as reasons people claim to have voted Leave. I cannot recall any election where people have worked so hard to retrospectively justify their vote with wholly revisionist reasons. Agree - you've made my point far more clearly than I managed.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 12 Jan 24 2.07pm |
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Originally posted by silvertop
Side issues. Leave did not credit the floating element of the electorate with that much intelligence (and time has proved them right). Leave was sold based only on 3 words. Anything more would confuse them. And, as another has said, this was equated in those simple little minds with immigration and border control. BTW, the poll on election day may have said X, but polls since have given Y and then Z as reasons people claim to have voted Leave. I cannot recall any election where people have worked so hard to retrospectively justify their vote with wholly revisionist reasons. I have been totally consistent with my attitude and reasons for voting to leave.
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| silvertop Portishead 12 Jan 24 5.56pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I have been totally consistent with my attitude and reasons for voting to leave. That's because it is all but impossible to empirically prove one way or the other with so many new variables entering the data soup. I suspect we will get a better picture in some more years. How may those years are I have no idea but I am not going to waste any thought on it. The split of those who gave genuine, reasoned thought to leave or remain was roughly one third each. You would have come within that group. It was the floating, feck-wit other third who were persuaded by 3 simple words who carried the day. I genuinely despair at some of my fellow countryfolk.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Jan 24 6.09pm |
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The biggest lie over Brexit is that it would happen. Democracy is largely a fallacy.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| thegreatlardino crawley/selsey 12 Jan 24 6.46pm |
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this is the first election for me that i think both choices are dog poo, we cant continue with the "conservatives" but then the other lot are no better is all a bit meh!
They're justified, and they're ancient |
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