Ukraine Situation - Should We Be Worried?
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 SW19 CPFC  Addiscombe West 12 Oct 22 1.13pm |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
Whilst Ukraine & NATO are separate entities, they have worked together for many years, this war has strengthened those ties. No doubt. Not sure how or why that is controversial though. Or anything other than expected in this particular situation. My point was the emerging theme here that NATO is the puppet master is hyperbolic.
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| Ouzo Dan 12 Oct 22 1.21pm |
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Taken from the SAS Rhodesian combat manual.. And then this video from earlier in the war I see SAS influence & training all over this war. Edited by Ouzo Dan (12 Oct 2022 1.22pm)
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Attachment: | Ouzo Dan 12 Oct 22 1.36pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
No doubt. Not sure how or why that is controversial though. Or anything other than expected in this particular situation. My point was the emerging theme here that NATO is the puppet master is hyperbolic. I suspect earlier in the war NATO had a tight grip over Ukraine however as the Ukrainian military has grown in confidence the reigns have come off somewhat. I maintain NATO are balls deep in this conflict, it's inevitable really.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 1.51pm |
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Originally posted by Eaglehamster
Presumably your certainty is because you have evidence of some kind? Well yeah, for anyone taking note of the actual battleground it's obvious. It's the satellites, military equipment, training, troop and mission direction as Dan states and even the obvious funding of the Ukraine's economy and military budget....Zelensky is now just a puppet of the Americans....and sadly so is most of Europe who will now probably be buying its energy....at considerable mark up compared to what we had before. Without Nato and the US the Ukraine would have lost this war before now. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 2.03pm)
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| Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 2.01pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Obviously NATO must have a decent level of involvement. Although I'd be surprised if they were running the show. Contributing and providing strategic as well as material support, sure. As much as Ukraine need that support I don't think it's realistic that Zelenskyy is taking orders without question or having a strategy and mind of his own. I think if you compare Zelensky's statements in March/April to the statements in more recent months I think its obvious. As for negotiations, let's just say that I don't think they have been going well. I think it's obvious that they have both decided to go onto exhaustion: they are all in.....and the side that 'loses' are going to be incredibly p1ssed off which then becomes very risky for all of us. Personally I think you are taking about common sense taking over before then....Well I certainly pray you are right.....but I suggest SW19 that if common sense were the order of the day then this war would never have happened in the first place. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 2.02pm)
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| Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 3.12pm |
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As for what the head of Nato Stoltenberg said as head of Nato said and what it means he is both the exact quote and a link to video of it: 'It is important for all of us, that Ukraine wins the battle. Because if [Russian President Vladimir] Putin wins, that is not only a big defeat for Ukrainians, but it will be a defeat and dangerous for all of us, because it will make the world more dangerous and it will make us more vulnerable for further Russian aggression'. I find the claim that Nato isn't directly involved in this war risible and the claim that direct involvement has to mean that you use your own troops is just waffle. When there are many fighting age Ukrainian males and civilians that can be used as your proxies that need can be sidelined. God knows what the death and injury toll is in this avoidable war. Whatever the position anyone holds let's just pray that we get out of this alive.
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Frickin Saweet  South Cronx 12 Oct 22 3.42pm |
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Originally posted by Goal Machine
What you talking about? Everyone wants peace except Putin. He pulls his army out and it will be over. If Ukraine pull out, Ukraine is over. NATO is a defensive alliance and have never been a threat to Russia - it's the usual bollocks propaganda from Putin to create a 'the rest of the world is against us' mentality in Russia, when it's simply not true. You can't blame Ukraine for wanting to be safer by joining. The only escalation again is coming from Russia. It's them who invaded, its them who ran sham referendums, it's them giving nuclear threats. A catalogue of poor judgement and continued poor judgement from Putin is causing the continued escalation. Are you suggesting that Ukraine just concedes the land they had illegally taken away from them by brute force, destruction and and mass homicide? What if Russian troops invaded your home town, smashed it to pieces, raped your woman, killed a few of your pals and forced you to live in an authoritarian regime which you had no choice over? There's no peace for the victims in this. Would you be happy to accept it or would you hope that your neighbours/allies rallied around to help? As others have said, there will be constant peace talk dialogue going on behind the scenes. It's just not in the public domain. My guess is that Russia won't use nuclear weapons as they will lose China. Their soldiers don't know why they are there, they are untrained, lack equipment and most importantly have low morale. Ukraine will gradually force Russia out and will join NATO. Russia will become a pariah state for 25+ years until they elect a western thinking President. Until then, they can hang out with North Korea. The best outcome for Russia is that they can claim Crimea. this is the crux of it as I see it. This is a battle for freedom and sovereignty the Ukrainians are entitled to. It's all very well giving a viewpint from this side of Europe, very different when Russian tanks are rolling down your street threatening your very way of life. I hope we and the rest of the allied nations back the Ukrainians until they force the Ruskies (and Putin) out. Hopefully there are enough higher ups in the Russian regime to create a coup when it's obvious to all but Putin that he's lost this crusade.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 4.37pm |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
Once again we're seeing a build up of pro Russian forces in Belarus, something that seems to happen every few months however it's looking like Belarus may well commit this time, Poland is absolutely spoiling for a fight so I can see both getting involved. Makes sense for the Russians to take the capital & wipe out Ukr leadership. Russians are pushing hard to take Bakhmut whilst Ukrainian advances have slowed a bit which is understandable considering how much territory the Russians have conceded recently, Ukrainian's will need to resupply the front. I've heard that Russia hasn't really hit the energy infrastructure in the northern cities where a Belarusian front could open up. Whether Belarus would put its troops on the ground is unknown. According to our resident fantasist I guess Belarus wouldn't be directly involved if they just supplied Russia with their equipment, training facilities and other help. I mean Nato or the west wouldn't really have a leg to stand on there.
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| Ouzo Dan 12 Oct 22 5.06pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I've heard that Russia hasn't really hit the energy infrastructure in the northern cities where a Belarusian front could open up. Whether Belarus would put its troops on the ground is unknown. According to our resident fantasist I guess Belarus wouldn't be directly involved if they just supplied Russia with their equipment, training facilities and other help. I mean Nato or the west wouldn't really have a leg to stand on there. If there is going to be a 2nd Kyiv offensive Russia & Belarus need to hurry up as the Ukrainian mud season will soon be upon us & we saw how that crippled the Russians trying to encircle Kyiv.
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| Ouzo Dan 12 Oct 22 5.08pm |
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Theres a global hawk tracking something in the black sea as I type this. What it is tracking will be getting fed down to Ukraine.
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| Stirlingsays 12 Oct 22 5.21pm |
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Originally posted by Ouzo Dan
If there is going to be a 2nd Kyiv offensive Russia & Belarus need to hurry up as the Ukrainian mud season will soon be upon us & we saw how that crippled the Russians trying to encircle Kyiv. The Russians are saying that their counter offensive is ready to go in two or three weeks and that they intend to start in November and have it practically finished in February. Something Ukraine and Nato will be well aware of so we will see where we are in February. I'm not seeing how Russia can take major territory when the roads are unsuitable for heavy equipment like tanks but there you go. War is misinformation so how much of that is genuine or true is unknown. However, from where I sit I'd say it's pretty obvious that Russia have brought forward their infrastructure hits that they were probably planning before their major push....due to the Crimean bridge was attacked. Maybe that brings forward their offensive as well....or not, because it's all guessimation and all those troops require the logistics, equipment and so on before they attack. It's all pretty terrible but despite what some are saying I don't think there is any desire to negotiate seriously on any of this.....We are in cold war and I regard that as a huge huge mistake, generational in the making, and that has world changing complications for all of us. Morons have recreated the unsafe world I was raised in where we all had to worry about nukes and we are surrounded by people who think like it's all a Hollywood movie that isn't going to affect them which has a happy ending. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Oct 2022 5.25pm)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Oct 22 5.36pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
As for what the head of Nato Stoltenberg said as head of Nato said and what it means he is both the exact quote and a link to video of it: 'It is important for all of us, that Ukraine wins the battle. Because if [Russian President Vladimir] Putin wins, that is not only a big defeat for Ukrainians, but it will be a defeat and dangerous for all of us, because it will make the world more dangerous and it will make us more vulnerable for further Russian aggression'. I find the claim that Nato isn't directly involved in this war risible and the claim that direct involvement has to mean that you use your own troops is just waffle. When there are many fighting age Ukrainian males and civilians that can be used as your proxies that need can be sidelined. God knows what the death and injury toll is in this avoidable war. Whatever the position anyone holds let's just pray that we get out of this alive. Stoltenberg’s statement is both accurate and sensible. It matches what I, and most others, have consistently been saying. NATO is not directly involved. No matter how often you try to suggest they are, or how risible it seems to you. Facts cannot be changed. That they are deeply involved and heavily committed does not equal being directly involved. It might appear to just be semantics to those who think we ought not be supporting Ukraine to the level we are, but it’s a much bigger matter than mere semantics. There is a line NATO has drawn and will not cross. Should they do so they would provide Putin with all the excuses he needs. It would vastly increase the risk of escalation and change the whole nature of the war.
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