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jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Sep 17 4.31pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
I guess you haven't read much of the Old Testament, then. Well yes, as a kid this was my first inkling that even if this god existed, it wasn't worthy of worship or adulation.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 01 Sep 17 4.50pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well yes, as a kid this was my first inkling that even if this god existed, it wasn't worthy of worship or adulation. People show adulation for God like the would for the local drug lord. It's a combination of fear and need disguised as love.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Sep 17 4.55pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
People show adulation for God like the would for the local drug lord. It's a combination of fear and need disguised as love. I've never met a drug lord, but I get what you mean - There is a worrying idolisation of Gangsters, even in the mainstream, though I'd say that's pretty much a cross cultural phenomena.
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Stirlingsays 01 Sep 17 6.05pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
There is no equivalency between right and left when it comes to deadly political violence. If the activity of right wing terrorists (in the US at least) seems magnified, it's because they are disproportionately by far the deadliest sect of extremists out there. Since 9/11, right wing extremists are killing 2 people to every 1 person killed by all other terrorist combnined, including Islamists (the second biggest group) and left-wing terrorists (who barely make the list). If you think otherwise, you are Frank the Tank, running naked in the streets, excusing yourself by claiming that "everyone's doing it". Apart from the categorization problems here and the political nature of where those statistics come from...this whole point is a bit disingenuous. Lets compare numbers shall we? How many Muslims are in America compared to non Muslims? The logic of that destroys the very essence of what you are talking about......The numbers of Muslims in America is so tiny that for them to even be the second group is outrageous......Anyone reading your post would'd think that people were wrong to focus on it. The far right are a problem but the advancement and spread of Islamic terrorism is America is inhibited.....probably partly be the general right wing nature of the America culture. However, in Europe, Islamic fundamentalism has had a far easier ride. Edited by Stirlingsays (01 Sep 2017 6.07pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Ray in Houston Houston 01 Sep 17 6.15pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Apart from the categorization problems here and the political nature of where those statistics come from...this whole point is a bit disingenuous. Lets compare numbers shall we? How many Muslims are in America compared to non Muslims? The logic of that destroys the very essence of what you are talking about......The numbers of Muslims in America is so tiny that for them to even be the second group is outrageous......Anyone reading your post would'd think that people were wrong to focus on it. The far right are a problem but the advancement and spread of Islamic terrorism is America is inhibited.....probably partly be the general right wing nature of the America culture. However, in Europe, Islamic fundamentalism has had a far easier ride.
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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Stirlingsays 01 Sep 17 6.24pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
I'd argue that it kind of does in respect to Islamic violence, for precisely the ratio issues that I listed. Also, I don't know why taking out 9/11 gets to be some valid exercise. Where I would agree with you is that far left violence seems not to be much of an issue in the States outside of its relationship with the far right.....though this may be changing with the recent violence by antifa at Berkeley and other places....often against journalists or anyone they perceive as being against them. But I think the number of the left who agree with hitting people over the head because they have a different political opinion is very low. Though the numbers willing to defend antifa is worryingly high....I'm not sure many of them really understand what antifa is....I'm not sure some of them turning up for antifa even understand that.....same with some turning up for the far right.....It's just....'I don't like those people over there'.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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Ray in Houston Houston 01 Sep 17 6.54pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'd argue that it kind of does in respect to Islamic violence, for precisely the ratio issues that I listed. Also, I don't know why taking out 9/11 gets to be some valid exercise. Where I would agree with you is that far left violence seems not to be much of an issue in the States outside of its relationship with the far right.....though this may be changing with the recent violence by antifa at Berkeley and other places....often against journalists or anyone they perceive as being against them. But I think the number of the left who agree with hitting people over the head because they have a different political opinion is very low. Though the numbers willing to defend antifa is worryingly high....I'm not sure many of them really understand what antifa is....I'm not sure some of them turning up for antifa even understand that.....same with some turning up for the far right.....It's just....'I don't like those people over there'.
antifa! antifa! antifa!
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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steeleye20 Croydon 01 Sep 17 7.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
antifa! antifa! antifa! How would you feel, as a parent, if your child was taught by silly Stirling?
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 01 Sep 17 7.06pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
antifa! antifa! antifa! It's extremely concerning how the political right (and an alarming number of self-declared "centrists" have taken to using "antifa" as an insult, as if being opposed to fascism is some kind of moral degeneracy. When it comes to extreme ideologies like fascism (street thuggery, dictatorship, genocide, white supremacy, violent oppression, eugenics, anti-Semitism ...) you're either opposed to it, or you support it. There is no moderate centre ground when it comes to fascism. No matter how much you might wish for it, there simply isn't a convenient fence for right-on handwringers to sit on. When it comes to fascism the only sensible position for anyone other than fascists is on the anti-fascist side. This is because if the fascists gain power they'll eliminate all opposition starting with the leftists and the anarchists before they move on to eliminating the democratic socialists, liberals and traditional conservatives. If you have any political opinions other than fascism (or pig-headed apathy about all political issues and a willingness to adopt total subservience to your political leaders in order to save your own skin if fascists ever come to power) then you have a responsibility to be antifa. Inaction when it comes to fascism is clearly implicit support for fascism, but promoting the ridiculous, but increasingly popular false equivalence that those who oppose fascism are "just as bad" as the fascists themselves is even worse. It's worse because it implies that to oppose fascism is morally repugnant, when in reality smug indifference to fascism is the real moral degeneracy that people should be worrying about. Even if the number of people alive who still remember the horrors of the Second World War have dwindled, we still have countless recorded testimonies that the brutality of Hitler's Nazi regime was enabled by the indifference of millions of ordinary people. It was the self-serving indifference of the people who just quietly got on with their lives as their neighbours and work colleagues were dragged off by the fascists who allowed the political purges and then the Holocaust to happen. Britain has a long tradition of resisting fascism (the battle of Cable Street, WWII, opposition to the National Front in the '70s and '80s, ridicule of the BNP & EDL ...) but nowadays many of the descendants of those who made incredible sacrifices to beat fascism during the Second World War are actually more likely to share content from extreme-right hate groups like Britain First on Facebook and whine piteously about how nasty the Antifa leftists are, than they are to do like their grandparents did and actively resist the horrors of fascism. In fact we've no excuse at all for inaction, or for mindlessly spewing the ridiculously dangerous trope that to oppose fascism is as bad as fascism itself. Back in the 1930s nobody knew the appalling scale of the horrors that fascism would inflict on Europe but the British working classes came together in solidarity to beat Oswald Mosley's fascist blackshirts into submission. Nowadays we've got access to an enormous mass of information about the horrors that are possible when desperate people succumb to the lure of fascism, so we've no excuse at all for not being anti-fascists. So next time you hear anyone smugly condemning those who stand up against fascism as being "just as bad", remember that they're condemning all anti-fascists, including previous generations of your family who made such sacrifices in the fight against fascism on the continent. They're essentially saying that your grandparents/great-grandparents were just as bad as the concentration camp guards in Nazi Germany because they actively, and in many cases violently, resisted fascism. By making this ridiculous argument they're placing themselves on a mythical centre-ground where inaction and pseudo-liberal handwinging in the face of violent swastika waving white supremacists intent on dictatorship and genocide is morally superior to active resistance and condemnation! It's long been said that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing". And it should be obvious that all that is necessary for the triumph of fascism is for right-wingers and sickeningly smug so-called "centrists" to go around spreading the incredibly dangerous notion that to actively oppose fascism is as bad as fascism itself.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 01 Sep 17 7.07pm | |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
How would you feel, as a parent, if your child was taught by silly Stirling? I'd be fine. Much as it's said otherwise, teachers don't take politics into the classroom.
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Hrolf The Ganger 01 Sep 17 7.12pm | |
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Originally posted by Ray in Houston
Was I? Since you mentioned me, I would say that Europe is under constant threat from terrorist attack right now and it ain't from Nazis. The last time I remember Nazis being a significant threat was WW2. It might be different where you are.
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npn Crowborough 01 Sep 17 7.14pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
I'd be fine. Much as it's said otherwise, teachers don't take politics into the classroom. And even if it were, it would be nice for my kids to be exposed to both sides of a debate (there are undeniably a lot of lefties in the profession), else how do they learn to rationalise arguments and make up their own minds? I'd be far more concerned if people were excluded from teaching because of their political views, much like this "no platforming" b0llox. On a slight aside re: your angry voice quote - I am concerned that they believe fascism is restricted to "white supremacy". Surely Mugabe is a perfect example of a fascist leader?
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